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second photographer copyright question

JHD is off-line
05 October 2014 17:39
Astphoto
Photographer

Location
United Kingdom
Merseyside


The correct answer is this.

You own copyright in all your work unless you are an actual employee. TFP, help out a friend, mutual arrangement do not count. The only way you waive copyright is

A. A written waiver.
B. A proper employment contract and receipt of ACTUAL payment.

I know this because I have tested it with a major publisher, I won they lost.



Andy Johnstone is off-line
06 October 2014 03:02
photomane9
Photographer
photomane9
Location
United Kingdom
London
Bexleyheath

Quote from Astphoto
The only way you waive copyright is
A. A written waiver.
B. A proper employment contract and receipt of ACTUAL payment. 



Mention of a waiver here only serves to confuse.
A waiver is an informed decision to abandon or not enforce, wholly or in part, a right or entitlement. That is not the same as either an assignment or a licence. For example where section 11(2) of the Copyright Designs and Patents Act 1988 applies (works made in the course of employment) the author has no copyright or moral rights in the work in the first place through the operation of the law, therefore there is nothing to waive in such cases.
An assignment or a licence both involve the formal transfer of all or part of the rights held by a copyright owner, either on a permanent or temporary/limited basis.  An assignment must be done in writing, and for the avoidance of doubt, licences should ideally also be given in writing.
 


OldMaster is off-line
06 October 2014 08:39
OldMaster
Photographer
OldMaster
Location
United Kingdom
Hertfordshire
Harpenden

Doesn't matter whether you were working for him or not IT'S STILL YOUR COPYRIGHT..you took the pictures!! Because he paid you or "employed you" he should have some small print somewhere saying he may use your images for his purposes.

Don't know why so many people find this so hard to understand!! You pressed the button..you were author of the pictures..its your copyright! You would have to sign away your rights for you not to be able to use your pictures which may be the case. If someone pays you may have to sign an agreement that you may not use your pictures and you in effect offer in return for remuneration a license for them to use them..but they can't change the legal definition of "Copyright"!


G Jack B is off-line
06 October 2014 10:58
Plymjack
Photographer
Plymjack
Location
United Kingdom
Devon
Plymouth

Quote from photomane9
Mention of a waiver here only serves to confuse.
A waiver is an informed decision to abandon or not enforce, wholly or in part, a right or entitlement. That is not the same as either an assignment or a licence. For example where section 11(2) of the Copyright Designs and Patents Act 1988 applies (works made in the course of employment) the author has no copyright or moral rights in the work in the first place through the operation of the law, therefore there is nothing to waive in such cases.
An assignment or a licence both involve the formal transfer of all or part of the rights held by a copyright owner, either on a permanent or temporary/limited basis.  An assignment must be done in writing, and for the avoidance of doubt, licences should ideally also be given in writing.
 





Quote from OldMaster
Doesn't matter whether you were working for him or not IT'S STILL YOUR COPYRIGHT..you took the pictures!! Because he paid you or "employed you" he should have some small print somewhere saying he may use your images for his purposes. Don't know why so many people find this so hard to understand!! You pressed the button..you were author of the pictures..its your copyright! You would have to sign away your rights for you not to be able to use your pictures which may be the case. If someone pays you may have to sign an agreement that you may not use your pictures and you in effect offer in return for remuneration a license for them to use them..but they can't change the legal definition of "Copyright"!



Bob will no doubt tell us who is wrong...
Real Bread Cook by day, BTL landlord & IT Guru - who said men can't multitask!


Andy Johnstone is off-line
06 October 2014 11:54
photomane9
Photographer
photomane9
Location
United Kingdom
London
Bexleyheath

Quote from Plymjack
Bob will no doubt tell us who is wrong...


There is no disagreement between the two posts you quoted. I refered to section 11(2) which clearly talks about things done in the course of employment.Elsewhere (Section 178) in the Act employment is defined as follows:
Quote“employed”, “employee”, “employer”, and “employment” refer to employment under a contract of service or of apprenticeship;


Old Master put his reference in quotes:  "employed you". I assume this was to deliberately indicate that he was referring to the non-legal use of the word 'employ' such as when one might say they employed a builder to come round and fix some guttering. Most normal people would not take that to mean that the householder had entered into a contract of employment and was paying the builder's NI contributions, with pension rights and holiday pay etc.
When read like that - as I am guessing Old Master meant it to read - then there is no discrepancy between what he and I said. It probably won't be necessary to get Bob out of the pub to adjudicate. 



Bob is onlinePlatinum Member
06 October 2014 12:03
Bob
Photographer
Bob
Location
United Kingdom
Devon
Honiton

Quote from Plymjack
Bob will no doubt tell us who is wrong...


Neither photomane9 nor OldMaster is wrong.
Please stop being a muppet and go and learn the basics of CDPA 1988.
The images were not taken as part of Rob's employment as he is not employed by the wedding snapper.
As stated previously, stop digging. You soon won't find a ladder long enough to get you out that hole.
Bob



17 October 2014 18:15
stevephot
Photographer


Quote from photomane9
There is no disagreement between the two posts you quoted. I refered to section 11(2) which clearly talks about things done in the course of employment.Elsewhere (Section 178 ) in the Act employment is defined as follows:

“employed”, “employee”, “employer”, and “employment” refer to employment under a contract of service or of apprenticeship;

Old Master put his reference in quotes:  "employed you". I assume this was to deliberately indicate that he was referring to the non-legal use of the word 'employ' such as when one might say they employed a builder to come round and fix some guttering. Most normal people would not take that to mean that the householder had entered into a contract of employment and was paying the builder's NI contributions, with pension rights and holiday pay etc.

When read like that - as I am guessing Old Master meant it to read - then there is no discrepancy between what he and I said. It probably won't be necessary to get Bob out of the pub to adjudicate. 






There are four ways of establishing an employee’s status: (dependant employer, worker(contractor) or self employed.

1. The Control Test – what is the extent of supervision, at what extent does the individual have over their own work?
2. The Integration Test – Is the work carried out an integral part of the employer’s core activity or is it only accessory to?
3. The Economic Reality Test – How far is the individual in business on his own account.
4. Mutuality of Obligation Test – Does the individual have to accept work from the employer and is there a possibility of turning down work?

The differences are to recognise employment rights and not copyright.

I'm not convinced that employment status is relevant.



I have a casting out for a 2nd tog in Cheshire which is paid!

Dont blame me..i voted for the other lot :)


ChrisS is off-line
19 October 2014 16:10
TheChrisS
Photographer

Location
United Kingdom
Cambridgeshire


Bob, what is the point in belittling people if they're wrong? By all means tell them they're wrong and explain why, but why patronise them and look down on them? With all due respect, your word is not the final one that everybody should be looking out for, and it does not give you the right to treat people like they're beneath you.

Back to the subject, I am in general agreement with the concept that unless you sign a contract that states otherwise, you own the copyright to the images you take.



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