Scottish referendum.

Scottish referendum.

143 posts
15 Feb 2014
pvfb
Photographer
pvfb
RedChecker
In case of confusion regarding British Isles, United Kingdom, countries etc...
Sadly he doesn't cover the "British Islands" in order to confuse people further, it's used in a couple of our HMG contracts, see the wikipedia article on Terminology of the British Isles.
Posted 18 Feb 2014
cziiki
Photographer
cziiki
tonycsm
Of course he's not impartial...he's a Union supporter, effectively putting forward views in support of the No campaigners to counter the disinformation put forward by the SNP.
Well yes but normally you'd back up your arguments by referring to an unbiased factual source, not another biased one - specially one that pretends to be unbiased! Rather like saying "and if you don't believe my rant, here's another rant, yeah what do you say about that!" I'm not really leaning strongly either way and I suspect that the vote will be 60/40 against rolling back the Union, but I often find the level of discussion pretty low.
Posted 18 Feb 2014
anthonyh
Photographer
anthonyh
Scotland has been an integral part of the UK for far longer than many major European countries have actually existed...Germany and Italy being just two.

Breaking up the UK is madness in my opinion....there is such a thing as strength in unity and this whole independence thing is less based on rationality than the naked ambitions of one particular Scottish politician who likes the idea of being the big fish in a small pond. And sod the consequences.

The whole process is not even democratic...Scots not actually living in Scotland at the time of the referendum have no say in the future of their country....and the rest of the UK voters have been denied a say which is unusual to say the least...when a legal partnership of any description is dissolved all parties to the original contract normal have a say in the outcome.

Posted 18 Feb 2014
click_gotcha
Photographer
click_gotcha
Of course it's democratic. The SNP have campaigned for independence for over half a century, they slowly won over people with their arguments to the extent the the SNP are the only party in any parliament/assembly in thy UK to have a majority in the parliament they sit in. That majority gives them the mandate to call a referendum on independence as per their manifesto. If enough people vote yes then Scotland will become independent because of the will of it's people. ie Democratically.

If you want an example of someone acting undemocratically try Nick Clegg and tuition fees.

Posted 18 Feb 2014
tonycsm
Photographer
tonycsm
cziiki

Well yes but normally you'd back up your arguments by referring to an unbiased factual source, not another biased one - specially one that pretends to be unbiased! Rather like saying "and if you don't believe my rant, here's another rant, yeah what do you say about that!" I'm not really leaning strongly either way and I suspect that the vote will be 60/40 against rolling back the Union, but I often find the level of discussion pretty low.


The level of discussion is pretty low because the SNP prefer it that way and from what I've read of Tomkins, he's hardly denying he's a Unionist or unbiased.

The SNP got it totally wrong on currency union and also about waltzing straight into the EU so it makes you wonder what else is wrong with their policies, if they have any. They don't want invasive questioning...their preferred method is to blame Westminster for everything and stir up hatred toward the Tories, hoping that their bluster will be enough to deflect from the real issues.

Whenever anyone throws a serious question over the SNP's assertions of how everything will be ok once independence is grasped, they immediately cry foul and stamp their feet claiming they are being bullied by their neighbour just as they did when all three parties told them they wouldn't support a currency union - that is not bullying, it's called protecting the interests of the rUK should Scotland choose independence.

Personally speaking, it matters little to me whether or not Scotland chooses independence as rUK will just have get along without Scotland being part of the Union though to be fair, I would be sad to witness the breakup after 300 years of Union but that's for the people of Scotland to decide... whether they follow a group of people who's only ambition from my perspective, is seemingly independence at all costs and sod the consequences or stay with the Union is down to them, but if I was in a position of having a vote, I'd want to hear the truth and not just the propaganda of the SNP and I'd want to be sure that the future of myself, kids and grandkids was secure and not a casualty of some politician's ideological dreams before casting a YES vote.









Posted 18 Feb 2014
tonycsm
Photographer
tonycsm
cziiki

Well yes but normally you'd back up your arguments by referring to an unbiased factual source, not another biased one - specially one that pretends to be unbiased! Rather like saying "and if you don't believe my rant, here's another rant, yeah what do you say about that!" I'm not really leaning strongly either way and I suspect that the vote will be 60/40 against rolling back the Union, but I often find the level of discussion pretty low.


The level of discussion is pretty low because the SNP prefer it that way and from what I've read of Tomkins, he's hardly denying he's a Unionist or unbiased.

The SNP got it totally wrong on currency union and also about waltzing straight into the EU so it makes you wonder what else is wrong with their policies, if they have any. They don't want invasive questioning...their preferred method is to blame Westminster for everything and stir up hatred toward the Tories, hoping that their bluster will be enough to deflect from the real issues.

Whenever anyone throws a serious question over the SNP's assertions of how everything will be ok once independence is grasped, they immediately cry foul and stamp their feet claiming they are being bullied by their neighbour just as they did when all three parties told them they wouldn't support a currency union - that is not bullying, it's called protecting the interests of the rUK should Scotland choose independence.

Personally speaking, it matters little to me whether or not Scotland chooses independence as rUK will just have get along without Scotland being part of the Union though to be fair, I would be sad to witness the breakup after 300 years of Union but that's for the people of Scotland to decide... whether they follow a group of people who's only ambition from my perspective, is seemingly independence at all costs and sod the consequences or stay with the Union is down to them, but if I was in a position of having a vote, I'd want to hear the truth and not just the propaganda of the SNP and I'd want to be sure that the future of myself, kids and grandkids was secure and not a casualty of some politician's ideological dreams before casting a YES vote.









Posted 18 Feb 2014
anthonyh
Photographer
anthonyh
click_gotcha

Of course it's democratic. The SNP have campaigned for independence for over half a century, they slowly won over people with their arguments to the extent the the SNP are the only party in any parliament/assembly in thy UK to have a majority in the parliament they sit in. That majority gives them the mandate to call a referendum on independence as per their manifesto. If enough people vote yes then Scotland will become independent because of the will of it's people. ie Democratically. If you want an example of someone acting undemocratically try Nick Clegg and tuition fees.


Nothing you say (other than the Nick Clegg bit) alters my opinion.....the Scots (a relatively small proportion of the UK population) somehow seem to have been given the power to decide whether or not to break up the UK. And not all Scots....the large number living / working in England (and presumably more inclined to value the current Union) are denied a vote....even those temporarily seconded here by their companies.

But over tha ages democracy has always been a moveable feast, usually manipulated by those who have the means to alter the system to achieve what they want. The same people who only want to agree / present the facts that suit them.
Posted 18 Feb 2014
click_gotcha
Photographer
click_gotcha
anthonyh

Nothing you say (other than the Nick Clegg bit) alters my opinion.....the Scots (a relatively small proportion of the UK population) somehow seem to have been given the power to decide whether or not to break up the UK. And not all Scots....the large number living / working in England (and presumably more inclined to value the current Union) are denied a vote....even those temporarily seconded here by their companies.

But over tha ages democracy has always been a moveable feast, usually manipulated by those who have the means to alter the system to achieve what they want. The same people who only want to agree / present the facts that suit them.


It's about self determination, no-one but the people of Scotland should be able to decide on Scotland's future.

If/when the EU referendum comes around do you think that France and Germany will get a vote?

Posted 18 Feb 2014
Edited by click_gotcha 18 Feb 2014
anthonyh
Photographer
anthonyh
click_gotcha

It's about self determination, no-one but the people of Scotland should be able to decide on Scotland's future.

If/when the EU referendum comes around do you think that France and Germany will get a vote?



Not sure what point you are making...the EU is not a country but a trading association with some mutual treaty obligations and benefits, unlike the UK which is rather more than that.  And as no other country in the EU is part of the UK  why would any of them have a vote in a refurendum regarding the UK's relationship with that particular organization?.

However you are arguing that one part of the UK is entitled to break it (the UK) up despite what the other parts might want.

Let us try a differnent tack then.....suppose England, Wales and N.I. decided to break away from Scotland...because we thought it in our financial interest?...irrespective of the impact on Scotland or the wishes of the people living there.....just junk a 300 year old partnership that has created one of the most effective cultrual and economic entities the world has known.

Posted 18 Feb 2014
click_gotcha
Photographer
click_gotcha
anthonyh

Not sure what point you are making...the EU is not a country but a trading association with some mutual treaty obligations and benefits, unlike the UK which is rather more than that.  And as no other country in the EU is part of the UK  why would any of them have a vote in a refurendum regarding the UK's relationship with that particular organization?.

However you are arguing that one part of the UK is entitled to break it (the UK) up despite what the other parts might want.

Let us try a differnent tack then.....suppose England, Wales and N.I. decided to break away from Scotland...because we thought it in our financial interest?...irrespective of the impact on Scotland or the wishes of the people living there.....just junk a 300 year old partnership that has created one of the most effective cultrual and economic entities the world has known.



Fine by me, all you have to do now is start the EWNINP and campaign for decades until you have an electoral mandate to call an election.

Good luck.

Posted 18 Feb 2014
magpie1

This train of thought, sounds like the Flying Scotsman.


Love it.

Posted 18 Feb 2014
w4pictures
Photographer
w4pictures
On the basis of being ignored by Westminster, the Somerset Levels currently have a stronger reason for independence.

Posted 18 Feb 2014
cziiki
Photographer
cziiki
click_gotcha
It's about self determination, no-one but the people of Scotland should be able to decide on Scotland's future.
So I, and 700,000 other Scots in England who weren't at a Scottish address last year, don't have the vote (I live in Glasgow now), plus many other tens of thousands out of the UK last year, whereas 300,000 English people and many tens of thousands of Americans, Poles, French, Portuguese, Australians, Kiwis, Germans, South Africans etc., who were, (I know of one or several of each right here in Glasgow) do get the vote. There may be legal action about this. Students, workers, retired people all disenfranchised - so how does this poll enfranchise me, my brother (working in Languedoc), my daughter (school in the Cotswolds)? All Scottish, we would get the passport. What is "the people of Scotland"?
Posted 18 Feb 2014
click_gotcha
Photographer
click_gotcha
cziiki

So I, and 700,000 other Scots in England who weren't at a Scottish address last year, don't have the vote (I live in Glasgow now), plus many other tens of thousands out of the UK last year, whereas 300,000 English people and many tens of thousands of Americans, Poles, French, Portuguese, Australians, Kiwis, Germans, South Africans etc., who were, (I know of one or several of each right here in Glasgow) do get the vote. There may be legal action about this. Students, workers, retired people all disenfranchised - so how does this poll enfranchise me, my brother (working in Languedoc), my daughter (school in the Cotswolds)? All Scottish, we would get the passport. What is "the people of Scotland"?


If you live in Scotland now you will be eligible to vote in the referendum.  The eligibility rules are more or less the same as any election in Scotland.

Posted 18 Feb 2014
davidhibberd
Photographer
davidhibberd
click_gotcha

If you live in Scotland now you will be eligible to vote in the referendum.  The eligibility rules are more or less the same as any election in Scotland.



Exactly - I had a query - wrote to the electoral officer in Inverness and got a very helpul comprehensive reply within a few hours

Posted 18 Feb 2014
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