Mark Duggan - Lawful killing

Mark Duggan - Lawful killing

82 posts
8 Jan 2014
IainT
Photographer
IainT
tonycsm
Probably very true and I wouldn't argue with you  but as a result of this 'poor intelligence', someone who was completely innocent lost their life and yet no one has ever faced the music for getting it wrong. 
Thats because the mistakes were made at the top and the government can't afford any public scrutiny of the inteligence services and they can't afford to make a scapegoat of the armed Police Officers involved because of the fallout...although if they could have, you can bet they would have offered up some of the troops on the ground as sacrifice.
Posted 14 Jan 2014
Alan_Jay
Photographer
Alan_Jay
tonycsm

Alan..I don't know to which firearms clubs you belong but if someone pointed a gun at someone else in the same manner as in tyhe photograph at my club, the other person would probably wrap the gun around their neck!

I don't think I mantioned anything about guns being pointed at people in a gun club.  I did say that I know of several clubs who have police officers as members.


The first rule of gun ownership or handling is that you NEVER point a firearm, even unloaded, at anyone...simple!

True.
The only exception would be in a combat zone and then you point the weapon in the general direction of the enemy - not at anyone on your side!

Not at all true.  There are a number of valid reasons for pointing a firearm at someone.  This is something that police the world over do, correctly, when dealing with an armed criminal etc.  I suspect that you have never been in combat.  There are many occasions when you point a loaded firearm at people,  directly at people, in such circumstances.  
In a combat situation, whether that be military or police, the rules are, by necessity, very different to target or game shooting rules!

As for the image being staged/posed...what possible motive would the photographer have for staging the shot in that manner unless it was to show how not to handle a firearm?

As I do not know the photographer, or even the actual context in which the photo was taken, I cannot possibly know what the motive was.
What I can say, from personal experience, is that similar situations to that described in the image do happen very frequently in training exercises.  It is right and proper that they do so.  Firearms training, at least in the police and military,  is not just about safe handling and shooting at paper targets.

As for being the best trained in the world - that may or may not be true but there is a big difference between training and individual officers putting that training into action during incidents! The training certainly didn't prevent the unneccessary deaths of James Ashley, Azelle Rodney, Harry Stanley, Jean Charles de Menezes et al...all shot by supposedly well trained firearms officers who got it wrong!


I'm not qualified to comment of any of those examples.  I do not have the pertinant facts.

I've known a great many people in my time, yet I can't think of a single one that has never made a mistake.  The only way to guarentee that a soldier or police officer NEVER  shoots someone by mistake,  is to not arm them.  That would be a situation that criminals would love,  but not be very good for the rest of us!
To give a little context to this,  whilst in the army,  I pointed a loaded rifle, with the safety off and my finger starting to squeeze the trigger, at a sniper.  Fortunately I didn't shoot, as the 'sniper' turned out to be a child pointing a bit of broom handle at me.
That doesn't make me any better than the soldiers or police officers that made a mistake and shot someone,  nor does it mean I was better trained.  It simply means that the circumstances were different.
If you have never been in that position,  it really is impossible to understand it.  I know that 5 minutes before it happened to me, that I certainly didn't!

When people talk of a 'split second decison',  it's something of a misnomer.  Frequently in these situations,  there is simply no time to make a decision,  all you can do is react.  and usually you react instinctively.  That's what all that training that doesn't adhere to the nice rules, is all about.
Posted 14 Jan 2014
Sdeve
Photographer
Sdeve
To avoid confusion I should say that I don't know of any shooting club that wouldn't accept police officers as members. What I do know of is ranges that will not allow police firearms unity to practice there, and some that have had bad experiences, damage to the range by careless shots mainly. At least one range at Bisley is hired by the police for practice. Members of the public are excluded from entering the range for any reason while this practice is going on.

As far as the photograph is concerned, that was found on a computer belonging to a member of the firearms team that , around the same time, as the death due to negligence of several members of the team, of PC Terry. That picture is of police officers larking around with a firearm in circumstances that are unacceptable.

Posted 14 Jan 2014
Sdeve

To avoid confusion I should say that I don't know of any shooting club that wouldn't accept police officers as members. What I do know of is ranges that will not allow police firearms unity to practice there, and some that have had bad experiences, damage to the range by careless shots mainly. At least one range at Bisley is hired by the police for practice. Members of the public are excluded from entering the range for any reason while this practice is going on. As far as the photograph is concerned, that was found on a computer belonging to a member of the firearms team that , around the same time, as the death due to negligence of several members of the team, of PC Terry. That picture is of police officers larking around with a firearm in circumstances that are unacceptable.



Surely 'larking around' with a firearm is unacceptable in any circumstance

I'm not sure whether you, in all honesty, find the image to be outrageous or humourous 

http://i934.photobucket.com/albums/ad189/Sdeve/Humour/bumgun.jpg
Posted 14 Jan 2014
Sdeve
Photographer
Sdeve
clearview_photography
Surely 'larking around' with a firearm is unacceptable in any circumstance I'm not sure whether you, in all honesty, find the image to be outrageous or humourous  http://i934.photobucket.com/albums/ad189/Sdeve/Humour/bumgun.jpg
OK, I'll type this as slowly and as clearly as I can. There is nothing humorous about that image. Their actions in posing for it are a disgrace. And yes, larking around, with a firearm is unacceptable in any circumstances which naturally means that I find their 'larking around' unacceptable. A slightly less than perfect use of English in the post you quote, for which I'll apologise because hadn't thought I'd be addressing the hard of thinking.
Posted 14 Jan 2014
PeterH
Photographer
PeterH
Sdeve

To avoid confusion I should say that I don't know of any shooting club that wouldn't accept police officers as members. What I do know of is ranges that will not allow police firearms unity to practice there, and some that have had bad experiences, damage to the range by careless shots mainly. At least one range at Bisley is hired by the police for practice. Members of the public are excluded from entering the range for any reason while this practice is going on.


I once went to a media day organised by South Yorkshire police firearms unit. The had a big outdoor disused quarry type place, and we got to 'play' with everything, live rounds too. We got glocks, MP5's (sadly they don't do full auto) shotguns and sniper rifles. Even had a kind of run/pick up gun and shoot course set up for us. A nice day out.





As far as the photograph is concerned, that was found on a computer belonging to a member of the firearms team that , around the same time, as the death due to negligence of several members of the team, of PC Terry. That picture is of police officers larking around with a firearm in circumstances that are unacceptable.


Did a press job once (first woman firearms officer I think), all the brass were there, and non of them seemed to have a problem with 'down the barrel' pictures being taken.
Posted 14 Jan 2014
Sdeve

OK, I'll type this as slowly and as clearly as I can. There is nothing humorous about that image. Their actions in posing for it are a disgrace. And yes, larking around, with a firearm is unacceptable in any circumstances which naturally means that I find their 'larking around' unacceptable. A slightly less than perfect use of English in the post you quote, for which I'll apologise because hadn't thought I'd be addressing the hard of thinking.



So why put it in a folder called Humour, strange choice, but no doubt you’ll have some brilliant reason for this

Please type as slowly as you can, because when your fingers out run your brain you tend to spout the same old crap

You could have just apologised without the insult, but I get the impression you dont like apologising as you seldom think you’re wrong
 
I’d much prefer to belong to the hard of thinking than be someone with such an over-inflated self opinion 
Posted 14 Jan 2014
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