scottish referendum

scottish referendum

257 posts
14 Sep 2014
tonycsm

Judging by all the anti-Westminster propaganda and hatred being pumped out by many of the YES campaigners, it's understandable that we 'down here' get the wrong  impression!
They've turned it into an emotive referendum which suits the SNP as they have failed miserably and dare I say it deliberately, to produce verifiable costings of just how much their White Paper promises and independence will ultimately cost the Scottish taxpayer once the dust has settled!  



It's got nothing at all to do with hatred being pumped out of any campaign. Although I have to admit no matter what side you are on yes/no there aren't many people up here who actually have much trust in the current goverment.

If people (in both countries) looked past shitty newspapers with catchy headlines they would maybe understand a bit more about the situation.






Posted 17 Sep 2014
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Statement from the Scottish Police Federation http://www.spf.org.uk/2014/09/spf-media-release-independence-referendum-2/ SCOTTISH POLICE FEDERATION 5 Woodside Place, Glasgow, G3 7QF MEDIA RELEASE The Scottish Police Federation represents all police officers in the ranks of constable, sergeant, inspector and chief inspector, police cadets and special constables, over 18,500 people, 98% of all police officers in Scotland. To: News Editor Date: 17 September 2014 Subject: Independence Referendum In response to increased press reports and comment implying increased crime and disorder as a consequence of the Independence Referendum Brian Docherty, Chairman of the Scottish Police Federation said; “The Police Service of Scotland and the men and women who work in it should not be used as a political football at any time and especially so in these last few hours of the referendum campaign. As I have previously stated the referendum debate has been robust but overwhelmingly good natured. It was inevitable that the closer we came to the 18th of September passions would increase but that does not justify the exaggerated rhetoric that is being deployed with increased frequency. Any neutral observer could be led to believe Scotland is on the verge of societal disintegration yet nothing could be further from the truth. Scotland’s citizens are overwhelmingly law abiding and tolerant and it is preposterous to imply that by placing a cross in a box, our citizens will suddenly abandon the personal virtues and values held dear to them all. At this time it is more important than ever that individuals be they politicians, journalists or whoever should carefully consider their words, maintain level heads and act with respect. Respect is not demonstrated by suggesting a minority of mindless idiots are representative of anything. One of the many joys of this campaign has been how it has awakened political awareness across almost every single section of society. The success enjoyed by the many should not be sullied by the actions of the few. Police officers must be kept free from the distractions of rhetoric better suited to the playground that the political stump. If crime has been committed it will be investigated and dealt with appropriately but quite simply police officers have better things to do that officiate in spats on social media and respond to baseless speculation of the potential for disorder on and following polling day” ENDS For further information contact Lesley Stevenson at 5 Woodside Place, Glasgow, G3 7QF Telephone: 0141 332 5234 Mobile: 07967 104173 Fax: 0141 331 2436 Email: lesley.stevenson@spf.org.uk
Posted 17 Sep 2014
magpie1
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magpie1
Some of my concerns about the tactics of SNP , especially Salmond, as leader is that most of the tactic is to railroad through a Yes based on emotion and 'idealism'. It dates me, but Andy Stewart delivering "Scottish Soldier" looms large in my mind. The actual hard reality is being kept well suppressed, a great example was the supposed, by Salmond, 'leaking' of the information by the Treasury, about currency etc. at the subsequent press conference Salmond deftly used the old magicians ploy of misdirection, where he droned on about referring the "disgraceful" breach of confidentiality, demanding an explanation, enquiry etc. all diverting attention from the factual content of the information, which was pretty dire for the Scottish economy.
The amount of "let's just say Yes now" and we can sort out the details later is utterly dishonest, the actualities and realities are not 'details' they are the crux of the matter, not bagpipers on misty hills.

Posted 17 Sep 2014
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magpie1

Some of my concerns about the tactics of SNP , especially Salmond, as leader is that most of the tactic is to railroad through a Yes based on emotion and 'idealism'. It dates me, but Andy Stewart delivering "Scottish Soldier" looms large in my mind. The actual hard reality is being kept well suppressed, a great example was the supposed, by Salmond, 'leaking' of the information by the Treasury, about currency etc. at the subsequent press conference Salmond deftly used the old magicians ploy of misdirection, where he droned on about referring the "disgraceful" breach of confidentiality, demanding an explanation, enquiry etc. all diverting attention from the factual content of the information, which was pretty dire for the Scottish economy. The amount of "let's just say Yes now" and we can sort out the details later is utterly dishonest, the actualities and realities are not 'details' they are the crux of the matter, not bagpipers on misty hills.


If you think the yes campaign has been about bagpipers on misty hills you haven't really been paying attention.

Posted 17 Sep 2014
Edited by click_gotcha 17 Sep 2014
magpie1
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magpie1
"Details" such as will Scotland be allowed into the EEC ? Will they have to adopt the euro? Immigration from EEC? Though Salmond appears to assume keeping the £ is a right, another minor detail ignored. Even if Scotland could have a Scottish pound it's not Uk pound, so can float more likely and £Scottish = ? against other currencies. Scottish defence? Postal service, the cost to send a letter to remote parts of Scotland is heavily subsidised, from overall postal revenue, what happens to that? Details, details, details but lets not worry about them until afterwards.


Posted 17 Sep 2014
Edited by magpie1 17 Sep 2014
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magpie1

"Details" such as will Scotland be allowed into the EEC ? Will they have to adopt the euro? Immigration from EEC? Though Salmond appears to assume keeping the £ is a right, another minor detail ignored. Even if Scotland could have a Scottish pound it's not Uk pound, so can float more likely and £Scottish = ? against other currencies. Scottish defence? Postal service, the cost to send a letter to remote parts of Scotland is heavily subsidised, from overall postal revenue, what happens to that? Details, details, details but lets not worry about them until afterwards.


Therer are pretty detailed answers to all of these if you looked hard enough. 

Posted 17 Sep 2014
tonycsm
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tonycsm
IainT

I am a Scot "down here" and I'm a Scot who would naturally vote no...if I was able to vote, which I am not...however the no campaign has been so condescending, peddled out much crap, as have the media (Daily Mail typical) that do you know what, if I had a vote I would vote yes just to put my middle finger up at them and many Scots feel the same. Thats the point, I believe, well I know the majority of Scots do not want to be independant from the UK, even Salmond did not want independance...he favoured a third option of a more powerful Scottish government, but still part of the UK, but Cameron would not sign off on it. The No campaign have done more to galvanise the Yes vote than the Yes people could ever do and if it is a Yes vote then Westminister and the English media will have done more to bring it about than anyone. Westminster and the media, particularly the Daily Mail WILL be responsible for breaking up the UK


Whatever the No campaigners were going to do or say, the SNP and hardline YES campaigners were going to turn everything into a negative and an 'us versus them ' argument with cries of scaremongering and bullying whenever reality checks were given so the NO campaigners were onto a loser from the start!

Having said that, the NO campaign has been pretty awful in putting their case for staying within the Union but irrespective of all the rhetoric from both sides, when it comes to voting tomorrow, I still believe voters will vote the way they planned to do months ago and it will only be the undecideds who may be influenced by the recent arguments from both sides.
Posted 17 Sep 2014
I understand people wondering about answers. I've yet to see any definite answers to what further devolution Scotland would get if a no vote goes though. Would love to know if the NHS budget up here is safe, would love to know if they have plans to either sell on or move the WMD which are up here because they are a colossal waste of money - money that would be much better spent on anything else. Would love to know if we will be getting dragged into any more wars that are none of our business. Will they start an oil fund in the way Norway has or continue to squander it on shit. Have to admit, if I was a rational English/Welsh or Irish person I would be saying - "Its a bit sad that its come to all this, but I can see why you are wanting this change. Good luck to you and hope it goes well" instead of the "haha you are a stupid joke of a country, can't wait to see you fail" - its really quite sad
Posted 17 Sep 2014
JTD
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JTD
I agree totally with Iain T on this. As an outsider looking in I think that every time Westminster members open their mouths they encourage the yes vote. In my opinion a union of equals based on the missing third option was the ideal solution but the arrogance of politicians said no to that. This situation is the gravest thing to hit the UK since WW2 and possibly beyond yet Westminster has just not taken it seriously. Darling went on at Salmond about not having a plan B over currency yet it appears that Westminster does not even have a plan B for what happens next if the yes vote is carried. It is appalling misjudgement by Cameron and if the yes vote goes through then Cameron must go.

Posted 17 Sep 2014
magpie1
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magpie1
No there aren't because any, 'plans,' are just that, the EEC, for example the Scottish 'plans' have not encountered the hard reality of actuality, Salmond has not negotiated anything, what, if anything will actually be the outcome of negotiations is completely unknown.

Posted 17 Sep 2014
RedChecker
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RedChecker
WMDs may seem a waste of money but they are an effective symbol of power and allow us to sit at the table with the big boys (namely the US, Russia and China), without them we wouldn't get a look in and our political influence around the world would be greatly diminished.

And the NHS will be as safe as the rest of the UK, although agreed it is becoming ever-increasingly underfunded although one could argue it's having the life sapped out of it by too much demand placed upon it that goes way beyond its scope on its inception.

Posted 17 Sep 2014
tonycsm
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tonycsm
click_gotcha

Therer are pretty detailed answers to all of these if you looked hard enough. 



When are all the published costings for the promises made in the White Paper or for all the other goodies Salmond has promsied?

He's been very verbose about his vision for Scotland and independence but extremely silent on how the Scots are going to pay for it all!

I have no axe to grind either way and wish the Scots the very best whichever way they vote but at the very least, you'd have thought Salmond would have had all the answers to such questions as currency union, EU membership, social policy funding etc etc sorted BEFORE the referendum and not leave it to a case of 'it'll be alright on the night'!  

Posted 17 Sep 2014
RedChecker
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RedChecker
JTD

I agree totally with Iain T on this. As an outsider looking in I think that every time Westminster members open their mouths they encourage the yes vote.


They're damned if they do and damned if they don't.  At least by making an effort people can't accuse them of not doing so.

Also the fact that it's the Tories holding power while dragging the UK out of a recession is far from being an ideal scenario.  If this were done over five years ago when things were better financially and Labour were still in power, I would imagine the 'no' campaign would have had a much easier ride.
Posted 17 Sep 2014
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RedChecker

WMDs may seem a waste of money but they are an effective symbol of power and allow us to sit at the table with the big boys (namely the US, Russia and China), without them we wouldn't get a look in and our political influence around the world would be greatly diminished. And the NHS will be as safe as the rest of the UK, although agreed it is becoming ever-increasingly underfunded although one could argue it's having the life sapped out of it by too much demand placed upon it that goes way beyond its scope on its inception.


I don't really care about things like "Sitting at the big table with the big boys", al that does is suck up our resources and drag us into wars we shouldn't be in.
Posted 17 Sep 2014
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tonycsm

When are all the published costings for the promises made in the White Paper or for all the other goodies Salmond has promsied?

He's been very verbose about his vision for Scotland and independence but extremely silent on how the Scots are going to pay for it all!

I have no axe to grind either way and wish the Scots the very best whichever way they vote but at the very least, you'd have thought Salmond would have had all the answers to such questions as currency union, EU membership, social policy funding etc etc sorted BEFORE the referendum and not leave it to a case of 'it'll be alright on the night'!  



Both the CU and EU membership could have been settled long ago with the co-operation of the UK government.

Posted 17 Sep 2014
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