Controversial Subject

Controversial Subject

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134 posts
27 July 2013
IainT
Photographer
IainT
HowardJ
Not many people read the forum on this site particularly the models.
You would be surprised who reads these forums. Do you think the authorities in the force area where these alleged offences were committed are unaware of this thread? Not to mention newspaper news desks.
Posted 29 July 2013
Sarge
Photographer
Sarge
IainT
Because nothing has happened in the past are you saying we should say oh well, if someone has got away with something for 40 years, lets just let him get on with it, because there is obviously nothing can be done.
That is what a lot of people are saying. How many times do we read 'well the police did nothing last time, so why bother reporting it this time'?
HowardJ
I think there's quite a few things this individual does that don't comply with the law yet the police don't act. This is one of the many things that's made me lose faith in the legal system in this country. They'll pay £100,000 for speed cameras etc but they won't tackle serious crimes (rapes, burglaries, etc) because they're "difficult" and "time consuming". Can someone explain to me why the police haven't taken any action despite the many reports from models?
The police will act, and in fact HAVE TO act. I cant comment on individual cases as I don't know all the details, but will say that the police will look into any crime reported. One of the problems we photographers/models/humans have is that we listen to a few tales from other people that state that the police 'did nothing' and think that firstly its 100% true and that secondly ALL police are like that. I can assure you that these stories of police not doing their job (rightly or wrongly) have a far greater effect than those where police do a great job. Instead of telling people that police 'wont do anything' making the victim reluctant to make a complaint, actively encourage people to make a report instead (if you really care about them). There is a thing called the 'victims charter', this is where the police have to keep the victim updated on the progress of their report/complaint. If you don't get an update ASK for one. Don't just sit there thinking that the police aren't doing anything. Most police are still VERY passionate about investigating 'real' crime, that is why they become solo (sexual offence liaison officers) trained or work within that department. The problem is they may only be 2 or 3 working in there and have a lot of jobs come in, so an historical case from several months ago may not be dealt with as quickly as an on going child abuse case, but will get dealt with. If you are unsure how a case is progressing then ASK, you also have a responsibility to help yourself don't forget. If you are still not happy with what is being done then go higher, don't just let it rest with the officer in the case, let his/her bosses know. As for spending more money on speeders than they do on crime, that is totally ridiculous. Firstly, speed camera are self generating, so pay for themselves out of the money they gather. Secondly this money goes to the government for them to use as they see fit and not the police force. In fact I know a lot of forces that don't even have ANY static speed cameras AT ALL. Ok, they have the boxes, but they don't have any cameras in them due to the cuts.
Posted 29 July 2013
HowardJ
Photographer
HowardJ
Sarge
That is what a lot of people are saying. How many times do we read 'well the police did nothing last time, so why bother reporting it this time'? HowardJ I think there's quite a few things this individual does that don't comply with the law yet the police don't act. This is one of the many things that's made me lose faith in the legal system in this country. They'll pay £100,000 for speed cameras etc but they won't tackle serious crimes (rapes, burglaries, etc) because they're "difficult" and "time consuming". Can someone explain to me why the police haven't taken any action despite the many reports from models? The police will act, and in fact HAVE TO act. I cant comment on individual cases as I don't know all the details, but will say that the police will look into any crime reported. One of the problems we photographers/models/humans have is that we listen to a few tales from other people that state that the police 'did nothing' and think that firstly its 100% true and that secondly ALL police are like that. I can assure you that these stories of police not doing their job (rightly or wrongly) have a far greater effect than those where police do a great job. Instead of telling people that police 'wont do anything' making the victim reluctant to make a complaint, actively encourage people to make a report instead (if you really care about them). There is a thing called the 'victims charter', this is where the police have to keep the victim updated on the progress of their report/complaint. If you don't get an update ASK for one. Don't just sit there thinking that the police aren't doing anything. Most police are still VERY passionate about investigating 'real' crime, that is why they become solo (sexual offence liaison officers) trained or work within that department. The problem is they may only be 2 or 3 working in there and have a lot of jobs come in, so an historical case from several months ago may not be dealt with as quickly as an on going child abuse case, but will get dealt with. If you are unsure how a case is progressing then ASK, you also have a responsibility to help yourself don't forget. If you are still not happy with what is being done then go higher, don't just let it rest with the officer in the case, let his/her bosses know. As for spending more money on speeders than they do on crime, that is totally ridiculous. Firstly, speed camera are self generating, so pay for themselves out of the money they gather. Secondly this money goes to the government for them to use as they see fit and not the police force. In fact I know a lot of forces that don't even have ANY static speed cameras AT ALL. Ok, they have the boxes, but they don't have any cameras in them due to the cuts.
In my experience the police automatically close cases after n days if they feel they can't solve them quickly. They now send you nice text messages with your crime number in and then call you a few days later to say we're closing the case. What truly excellent service! I know of one case where the model did go to the police after she was tied up in a room and left crying for hours. The police said they could do nothing as they had no way of knowing if it was supposed to be part of the shoot and it would be the model's word against the photographer's. Thus they took no further action. I think he must sell some of the scenes and the models must be signing releases, so... how would the police be able to prove the scenes weren't consented to by the model? I know of one model who was booked for solo and ended up doing b/g simply because the photographer said it was part of the shoot. She didn't say no and signed a release at the end of the shoot.
Posted 29 July 2013
photostore
Photographer
photostore
I imagine any police officer who's a member on here would have a moral duty to report this thread to the relevant area/force would'nt they ? Surely then they would have to act and take statements ? as sarge says, if it's reported they cant just ignore it
Posted 29 July 2013
Sarge
Photographer
Sarge
photostore
I imagine any police officer who's a member on here would have a moral duty to report this thread to the relevant area/force would'nt they ? Surely then they would have to act and take statements ? as sarge says, if it's reported they cant just ignore it
We all have a moral obligation to report incidents. Put it another way, imagine if you KNEW someone local to you was a child enticer/groomer/molester, would you think it acceptable to put it all over the internet for people to see in the hope that one of them would report it on your behalf or would you think reporting it to the authorities yourself was the better course of action? Is it always 'someone elses' responsibility?
Posted 29 July 2013
HowardJ
Photographer
HowardJ
Did the model in Iain's blog post sign a model release at the end of the shoot or did she walk out in shock and disgust and go to the police with evidence of the sexual assault having taken place?

Posted 29 July 2013
photostore
Photographer
photostore
HowardJ

Did the model in Iain's blog post sign a model release at the end of the shoot or did she walk out in shock and disgust and go to the police with evidence of the sexual assault having taken place?


Regardless of the answer to that Howard, surely even if she signed it, she was most probably in shock at the time, confused, adrenaline coursing through her, i hardly think she would have been in a fit state and able to formulate a coherent sentance never mind realise what she was signing for.
Posted 29 July 2013
Thank you to Fizzy & Honesty for also sharing you experiences. Fizzy I applaud your courage to put up a negative reference. If more people chose to do so rather than simply keeping their heads down this would work better. I can only imagine that they must think of the future work they would lose out on by speaking out and *causing problems* which is very sad.

Posted 29 July 2013
photostore

Regardless of the answer to that Howard, surely even if she signed it, she was most probably in shock at the time, confused, adrenaline coursing through her, i hardly think she would have been in a fit state and able to formulate a coherent sentance never mind realise what she was signing for.



I can relate to that one. See my unfortunate story on page 5. I don't really remember much except wandering down to reception afterwards and then getting home. I don't really remember getting on the train home but I must have! I might have signed some kind of model release too. Can't remember. Bet I'm not the only one too

Posted 29 July 2013
Sarge
Photographer
Sarge
Sarge
We all have a moral obligation to report incidents. Put it another way, imagine if you KNEW someone local to you was a child enticer/groomer/molester, would you think it acceptable to put it all over the internet for people to see in the hope that one of them would report it on your behalf or would you think reporting it to the authorities yourself was the better course of action? Is it always 'someone elses' responsibility?
Just to follow on from this... I can understand a victim not wanting to report it due to various reasons, like being scared, embarrassed, upset, disappointed in themselves and the photographer, being in fear (of not being believed, retaliations or what their family will say/feel), disgusted, angry, shocked. They may then tell someone, a friend, a stranger, another model/photographer. Why do they do this? is it because they need to get it off their chests as it could be eating away at them and hope for some guidance and encouragement? If that guidance is 'well the police wont do anything' is that the correct message to be putting forward to someone who may be crying out for help?
Posted 29 July 2013
HowardJ
Photographer
HowardJ
photostore
Regardless of the answer to that Howard, surely even if she signed it, she was most probably in shock at the time, confused, adrenaline coursing through her, i hardly think she would have been in a fit state and able to formulate a coherent sentance never mind realise what she was signing for.
I'm sure it's a very difficult situation to be in and I'm sure you are in a shocked state, but... how do you legally prove this was the case especially if he has ID shots of you at the end of the shoot and video footage to back up his position?
Posted 29 July 2013
Honesty
Model
Honesty
Sarge
We all have a moral obligation to report incidents. Put it another way, imagine if you KNEW someone local to you was a child enticer/groomer/molester, would you think it acceptable to put it all over the internet for people to see in the hope that one of them would report it on your behalf or would you think reporting it to the authorities yourself was the better course of action? Is it always 'someone elses' responsibility?
I didn't know people completely unaffected could report this sort of stuff. I don't actually subscribe to the police being "useless" I think the law is too biased towards men. If I ruled the world rape would be both a criminal and civil offense with set reparations. rape actually has financial implications. So why not. I may be wrong here but isn't the burden of proof lower in civil cases? So rather than seeking a criminal conviction the lady could just go on and sue. At the moment someone getting a sentence doesn't really help the victim any. If they actually had a shot at compensation then more people would come forward. At the same time though probably more fraudulent cases...
Posted 29 July 2013
Honesty
Model
Honesty
HowardJ
I'm sure it's a very difficult situation to be in and I'm sure you are in a shocked state, but... how do you legally prove this was the case especially if he has ID shots of you at the end of the shoot and video footage to back up his position?
Surely the issue of footage would prove the models story. I don't know about anyone else but a lot of extra unwanted footage happens between scenes when im filming. Where there are bloopers there is the potential for evidence. Also if the chump produces "no extra footage" I'd say that'd be pretty telling. Timecoding.... emotional countenance changing in the model throughout shoot... all on camera. And you all keep RAW forever right? The likelihood is he's incriminated himself over & over & over.
Posted 29 July 2013
Edited by Honesty 29 July 2013
Sarge
Photographer
Sarge
Honesty
I didn't know people completely unaffected could report this sort of stuff. I don't actually subscribe to the police being "useless" I think the law is too biased towards men. If I ruled the world rape would be both a criminal and civil offense with set reparations. rape actually has financial implications. So why not. I may be wrong here but isn't the burden of proof lower in civil cases? So rather than seeking a criminal conviction the lady could just go on and sue. At the moment someone getting a sentence doesn't really help the victim any. If they actually had a shot at compensation then more people would come forward. At the same time though probably more fraudulent cases...
Anyone can report anything, even if not directly effected. For instance if you see someone breaking into a neighbours house then you would report it even though its not directly effecting you. Yes it can have both criminal and civil implications and dealt with by both courts. That is why so many people are trying to sue the estate of Jimmy Saville. A criminal court has to prove 'beyond all reasonable doubt', where a civil court has to prove on the 'balance of probability'. Its not uncommon for someone to be found not guilty in a criminal court, but guilty in a civil court. However it does hold a lot more weight if they are found guilty in a criminal court before a civil hearing. There was a case a year or so ago where a convicted rapist won the lottery whilst in prison. His victim took him to civil court to claim some of his winnings due to the effects the attack had on her. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jan/30/ukcrime.davidbatty
Posted 29 July 2013
Edited by Sarge 29 July 2013
IainT
Photographer
IainT
HowardJ
Did the model in Iain's blog post sign a model release at the end of the shoot or did she walk out in shock and disgust and go to the police with evidence of the sexual assault having taken place?
Whether she signed a release or not may not be particularly relevant...if she did it could have been done at any time during the shoot, at the start even. I often have models complete paperwork and do ID shots before any shooting takes place. Many other producers do to. It is now common practice for certain reputable companies to ask for video footage before shooting commences where the model states clearly that she understands what she is taking part in and specifying the agreed levels and for video footage when the shoot is complete where the model is asked if she is happy with the way the shoot went and that she was not asked to take part in anything not previously agreed. If she did not sign a release, it would not stop him using the footage, but my guess is that he will not be using this footage anyway, the victim isn't actually sure if anything but solo was recorded.
Posted 29 July 2013
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