Scottish referendum.

Scottish referendum.

143 posts
15 Feb 2014
JimM
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JimM
just a thought. If the UK is a member of the EU and Scotland will need to re-apply for membership does this mean England, Wales and Northern Ireland will also need to re-apply and if not why not?

Posted 17 Feb 2014
stolenfaces
Photographer
stolenfaces
But maybe without Scottish yes votes the English will vote to leave the EU so under Salmon's plan this would leave Scotland in the EU using the pound.
Surely it would make more sense for their currency to be controlled by Berlin than London.
Or in view of the importance of oil and gas which are priced in dollars, they would be better off with the dollar.

Posted 17 Feb 2014
tonycsm
Photographer
tonycsm
stolenfaces

But maybe without Scottish yes votes the English will vote to leave the EU so under Salmon's plan this would leave Scotland in the EU using the pound. Surely it would make more sense for their currency to be controlled by Berlin than London. Or in view of the importance of oil and gas which are priced in dollars, they would be better off with the dollar.


Good argument!cheeky

Posted 17 Feb 2014
click_gotcha
Photographer
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stolenfaces

But maybe without Scottish yes votes the English will vote to leave the EU so under Salmon's plan this would leave Scotland in the EU using the pound. Surely it would make more sense for their currency to be controlled by Berlin than London. Or in view of the importance of oil and gas which are priced in dollars, they would be better off with the dollar.


On the other hand we could vote no and be dragged out of the EU when the voters of England vote to leave it in 2017.

You could argue that the only way for Scotland to remain in the EU is to vote Yes in the independence referendum.

Posted 17 Feb 2014
tonycsm
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tonycsm
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We're not going to become independent overnight, it will take 2 years of negotiations with rUK and we will still be in the EU during those 2 years.   So, plenty of time to negotiate terms with the EU too.   The currency remains to be seen but is in no way a deal breaker.   I think it's interesting that George Osborne delivered his "You're not using the £" speech but then refused to answer any questions afterwards and instead sneaked out a side door into a waiting car to the airport.  If he was so confident in his polcy why didn't he field any questions about it?  I'm pretty sure many businnes in England Wales and NI would want to ask him about the cost of exchanging currency that they will have to pay if Scotland doesn't use the £.



Why should Osborne go into details...he simply said NO currency union. That's the position of all the parties withing the rest of rUK. It's up to the SNP to put forward valid reasons why there should be a currency union...up to now they've not proffered one.

The arguments about rises in costs due to currency exchanges is far more overshadowed by the risks of a currency union with a newly independent country which doesn't even have a Plan B let alone viable fiscal policies.

If I'm not mistaken, the SNP have set the timetable for around 18 months after a potential YES vote for full independence... it will take far longer than that even to join the EU...there will be a few countries like Spain which will cause problems as Spain alone has two regions with similar aspirations as do the SNP so Spain and the likes are not going to sit idly by and let Scotland straight in!

I'm afraid your first minister is deluded if he thinks differently.

If Scotland really wants monetary union with the rUK, then let them go off, do their own thing and if successful, then maybe let them join in a monetary union with rUK but why should the rest of the UK have to underwrite Scotland's economy after they have effectively dumped the UK union?

Posted 17 Feb 2014
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Photographer
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tonycsm

Why should Osborne go into details...he simply said NO currency union. That's the position of all the parties withing the rest of rUK. It's up to the SNP to put forward valid reasons why there should be a currency union...up to now they've not proffered one.

The arguments about rises in costs due to currency exchanges is far more overshadowed by the risks of a currency union with a newly independent country which doesn't even have a Plan B let alone viable fiscal policies.

If I'm not mistaken, the SNP have set the timetable for around 18 months after a potential YES vote for full independence... it will take far longer than that even to join the EU...there will be a few countries like Spain which will cause problems as Spain alone has two regions with similar aspirations as do the SNP so Spain and the likes are not going to sit idly by and let Scotland straight in!

I'm afraid your first minister is deluded if he thinks differently.

If Scotland really wants monetary union with the rUK, then let them go off, do their own thing and if successful, then maybe let them join in a monetary union with rUK but why should the rest of the UK have to underwrite Scotland's economy after they have effectively dumped the UK union?



Of course he should answer the concerns of the people affected in rUK, and there will be concerns.  The problem with the no campaign is though that they are offering no answers to anyone, not even the people they represent.  

We need the politicians to debate these issues in a way that will give teh people of Scotland the information they need to make teh right decisions.  Simply flying up to Scotland, saying "no, you can't do that" and sneaking out the door again before anyone can ask why not is not informing teh elsctorate.

Posted 17 Feb 2014
tonycsm
Photographer
tonycsm
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Of course he should answer the concerns of the people affected in rUK, and there will be concerns.  The problem with the no campaign is though that they are offering no answers to anyone, not even the people they represent.  

We need the politicians to debate these issues in a way that will give teh people of Scotland the information they need to make teh right decisions.  Simply flying up to Scotland, saying "no, you can't do that" and sneaking out the door again before anyone can ask why not is not informing teh elsctorate.



I think it's about time Snake Oil Salmond was brought to task and forced to explain the SNP policies which will affect the ordinary Scot if they follow his notion to vote YES.

Up to now there has been nothing other than fairy stories from the SNP which would do justice to Hans Christian Andersen had he written them. It's about time he told the truth about what independence would really cost the average Scot on a day to day basis if they vote for independence.

The Nationalists as far as I can see seem only interested in independence at any costs with all the details to be sorted after a YES vote which strikes me as being incredibly naive, arrogant and utterly disingenuous.
At least Westminster is spelling it out in no uncertain terms... NO currency union.



Posted 17 Feb 2014
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Photographer
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tonycsm

I think it's about time Snake Oil Salmond was brought to task and forced to explain the SNP policies which will affect the ordinary Scot if they follow his notion to vote YES.

Up to now there has been nothing other than fairy stories from the SNP which would do justice to Hans Christian Andersen had he written them. It's about time he told the truth about what independence would really cost the average Scot on a day to day basis if they vote for independence.

The Nationalists as far as I can see seem only interested in independence at any costs with all the details to be sorted after a YES vote which strikes me as being incredibly naive, arrogant and utterly disingenuous.
At least Westminster is spelling it out in no uncertain terms... NO currency union.





If you're going to join the debate, at least get some basic facts right.  The SNP have outlined their proposals in great detail and made them available in several formats.  If you haven't read them then at least admit it.  

Westminster OTOH is simply saying what it thinks will get people to vote no.

Posted 17 Feb 2014
tonycsm
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tonycsm
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If you're going to join the debate, at least get some basic facts right.  The SNP have outlined their proposals in great detail and made them available in several formats.  If you haven't read them then at least admit it.  

Westminster OTOH is simply saying what it thinks will get people to vote no.



You're not by any chance referring to the SNP White Paper published not so long ago are you? That was nothing more than a wish list with no figures available for scrutiny.

Now if you can point me to more accurate figures with actual costings and how the people of Scotland will be affected as a consequence, then I'd be interested.

Posted 17 Feb 2014
click_gotcha
Photographer
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tonycsm

You're not by any chance referring to the SNP White Paper published not so long ago are you? That was nothing more than a wish list with no figures available for scrutiny.

Now if you can point me to more accurate figures with actual costings and how the people of Scotland will be affected as a consequence, then I'd be interested.



If we vote Yes then the people of Scotland will make the decisions that affect Scotland, not Westminster.  Holyrood will have full control of the revenue raised in Scotland, not Westminster.

Both sides in the argument agree that Scotland can be a viable independent country.

That's what independence means, the rest is just semantics.

As for the "wish list".  It's a 670 page document that lays out the possibilities and the preferred options of the SNP.  The currency section lays out 4 options, explains them and explains why the SNP belive the currency union to be the best option, but it doesn't rule out any of the other options.

None of the currency options are a deal breaker, the whole point is to take control of our own decisions and build a better Scotland from there.
Posted 17 Feb 2014
tonycsm
Photographer
tonycsm
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If we vote Yes then the people of Scotland will make the decisions that affect Scotland, not Westminster.  Holyrood will have full control of the revenue raised in Scotland, not Westminster.

Both sides in the argument agree that Scotland can be a viable independent country.

That's what independence means, the rest is just semantics.

As for the "wish list".  It's a 670 page document that lays out the possibilities and the preferred options of the SNP.  The currency section lays out 4 options, explains them and explains why the SNP belive the currency union to be the best option, but it doesn't rule out any of the other options.

None of the currency options are a deal breaker, the whole point is to take control of our own decisions and build a better Scotland from there.


Well in that case, there's no point in discussing it further as the SNP has got it all sorted but why would they wish to be allied to the Pound? That would mean that the rUK/ BoE would have control over Scotland's interest rates etc....so you wouldn't be making your own decisions as the SNP claims.

I'm not arguing that Scotland couldn't go it alone but if the currency options are not deal breakers then don't expect the rUK to underwrite your excursion into the world of independence.
You want independence then go for it but preferably without the help of the rUK...we will probably have enough problems after a YES vote without taking on any more risks all because of a bunch of people who want to dump the UK and go their own way. 

That's what independence means...going your own way and standing by your own decisions and not expecting others to support you until you're ready to drop them again.

Posted 17 Feb 2014
tonycsm
Photographer
tonycsm
click_gotcha

If we vote Yes then the people of Scotland will make the decisions that affect Scotland, not Westminster.  Holyrood will have full control of the revenue raised in Scotland, not Westminster.

Both sides in the argument agree that Scotland can be a viable independent country.

That's what independence means, the rest is just semantics.

As for the "wish list".  It's a 670 page document that lays out the possibilities and the preferred options of the SNP.  The currency section lays out 4 options, explains them and explains why the SNP belive the currency union to be the best option, but it doesn't rule out any of the other options.

None of the currency options are a deal breaker, the whole point is to take control of our own decisions and build a better Scotland from there.


Well in that case, there's no point in discussing it further as the SNP has got it all sorted but why would they wish to be allied to the Pound? That would mean that the rUK/ BoE would have control over Scotland's interest rates etc....so you wouldn't be making your own decisions as the SNP claims.

I'm not arguing that Scotland couldn't go it alone but if the currency options are not deal breakers then don't expect the rUK to underwrite your excursion into the world of independence.
You want independence then go for it but preferably without the help of the rUK...we will probably have enough problems after a YES vote without taking on any more risks all because of a bunch of people who want to dump the UK and go their own way. 

That's what independence means...going your own way and standing by your own decisions and not expecting others to support you until you're ready to drop them again.

Posted 17 Feb 2014
click_gotcha
Photographer
click_gotcha
tonycsm

Well in that case, there's no point in discussing it further as the SNP has got it all sorted but why would they wish to be allied to the Pound? That would mean that the rUK/ BoE would have control over Scotland's interest rates etc....so you wouldn't be making your own decisions as the SNP claims.

I'm not arguing that Scotland couldn't go it alone but if the currency options are not deal breakers then don't expect the rUK to underwrite your excursion into the world of independence.
You want independence then go for it but preferably without the help of the rUK...we will probably have enough problems after a YES vote without taking on any more risks all because of a bunch of people who want to dump the UK and go their own way. 

That's what independence means...going your own way and standing by your own decisions and not expecting others to support you until you're ready to drop them again.



The whole point about the currency union is that according to the SNP view it is in the best intersets of both Scotland and rUK, at least in the short term.   Osborne disputes that but he's making the noises you expect a politician to make when he's trying to get people to vote his way.  If he's so sure of his arguments then why does he not answer questions about them.

That's what you in rUK should be doing, asking him if he's sure instead of just accepting what he says as fact.  The SNP have stated their case and have put forward argumenst to support that case, shouldn't the chancellor be doing the same?

At the end of the day I will be voting yes, if we win it will be up to Osborne then to decide if he is serious about refusing to enter a currency union, do not be surprised if he changes his mind.   If he doesn't though, will it be because he is right and the SNP is wrong or will he be cutting of his nose to spite his face?

This is why he should be answering questions about his stance, not for us Yes voters because we will be voting yes anyway, but for the people of rUK so that they can decide if he's doing the right thing on their behalf or not.

Posted 17 Feb 2014
tonycsm
Photographer
tonycsm
click_gotcha

The whole point about the currency union is that according to the SNP view it is in the best intersets of both Scotland and rUK, at least in the short term.   Osborne disputes that but he's making the noises you expect a politician to make when he's trying to get people to vote his way.  If he's so sure of his arguments then why does he not answer questions about them.



Of course Salmond will say that... he couldn't give a stuff about the rUK, he's only serving Scottish interests...that's his job so don't try and say he's doing it for the good of both countries.
As soon as he's had his support and things are going well, if they do, then he'll dump the rUK like a hot stone.

If there is no currency union in place by the time independence is reached ( if it is), then you will find many businesses moving away from Scotland and investments falling so it's crucial that Salmond tries to negotiate a currency deal before then, if not then all of his plans are in tatters!

There's also the fact that a UK general election will be held next year and no party which supports taking on the risks of an independent Scotland through monetary union will risk the backlash from the voters of the rest of the UK if Scotland chooses independence so, the SNP's hopes of a currency union are effectively dead and burried as all three parties have pledged support to NO currency union so it's not just George Osborne and Tories making the statement...they're all singing from the same hymnsheet for once, which is highly unusual.

Osborne may not be everyone's cup of tea but he's not entirely stupid and neither are the other parties or the people of the rUK 







Posted 17 Feb 2014
cziiki
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cziiki
Osborne has no actual say in whether there would be a currency union. He is the chancellor of what will be the previous government repeating a position he is getting from the Treasury with advice from the Band of England and of course with a political eye on the effect of his statement. Negotiations after a Yes vote will decide. That's simple fact. The first pound note was printed in Scotland, and it is a currency of both countries. The physical location of the central bank does not define the ownership of the currency.


Posted 17 Feb 2014
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