Controversial Subject

Controversial Subject

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134 posts
27 July 2013
Honesty
Model
Honesty
Seductress
I read the blog, I'm shocked but not surprised. My thoughts go out to the young lady concerned and anybody else who may have fallen foul of this. Agencies should not be sending models in the direction of this person/company - to do so is disgusting and playing with peoples lives. Simply to say "if you're assertive you'll be fine" is no excuse.I don't care what the rates of pay are, nobody deserves to be treated with that amount of disrespect. I've not worked with the person/company but I have been in same situation. I was on a shoot, quite early into my way down this path. I had been contacted by a photographer from another site, who had seen my folio on there. He didn't have a folio himself - claiming it went south when his laptop blew up. He had no refs either - because he was just starting out. I SHOULD have had alarm bells ringing like crazy. But being green to it all (despite being 27) I didn't think of it. I arrived at the shoot with my (now ex) husband along, as we'd travelled some distance. The shoot was to take place in a well known hotel chain by a large airport; John waited in reception, and I promised to check in regularly as I had my phone with me. When I went to check in after the first hour I had no phone signal, but it was only to be a 3 hour shoot so I didn't worry too much. 2 hours in things went wrong for me. Like the young woman mentioned I did not consent but I also did not fight back. I got caught up like a rabbit in the headlights, too scared to know what to do. Thankfully the shoot ended and I went back downstairs to go home. I didn't mention it to John that evening. In fact he still does no know what happened on that shoot. Many of my close friends do and now so do you all. I was worried he would ban me from shooting anymore. I also blamed myself for not doing the checks I really should have. I blamed myself for not fighting back or simply getting the hell out of there. I didn't report it. I feared that it would not be taken seriously. I was on a shoot working up to full frontal nude. I thought I'd be seen like I was asking for it. Since that time the photographer I worked with has contacted me just the once. I don't know how the hell he still had my number as it was over a year since that incident. He asked me about working with him, said he'd had great fun the last time. I was very nearly physically sick when that came through. I've seen a thread up on the other site, a model asking about this person I worked with, thought he was a timewaster and not intending shooting. I inboxed her and advised of my experience and not to bother replying to any enquiries made by him under ANY of his assumed names. The site removed all the private reference threads some time ago. And since this person has no profiles on the main sites it is impossible to leave any feedback about him. Even cautious feedback. While I understand that these experiences may be very much in the minority it does not excuse it in any way, shape or form. It is shameful that anybody would continue to enable this to carry on by not speaking out.
I fought back one of mine and got choked half to death with a belt. If another model hadn't walked in and hauled him off I'd probably be dead. We tied him up and gave him a kicking. But it does make you think what's up with all these other bitchass models. Belt guy was working at the studio we were shooting at so no refs to leave. Photographer fired him. Well done on letting the other girl know. Respect!
Posted 28 July 2013
fizzy
Model
fizzy
Seductress, I'm so sorry to hear of your experience. Not fighting back or not saying no does not make it your fault and does not make rape any less of a disgusting, violent act. It's very common for victims of these kind of crimes to freeze. It's the body and mind's way of trying to protect itself.

However, on the back of this, I've decided to leave negative feedback for a photographer who is a notorious level pusher. I worked with him when I was brand new and was too cowed by his reputation to speak up for all these years. I know there will be repercussions because he's quite unstable when he doesn't get his own way, but I won't let other women be abused by him if my speaking up might prevent it. I just hope the moderators don't remove my feedback when he,inevitably, complains.
Posted 28 July 2013
Edited by fizzy 28 July 2013
HowardJ

It's almost like photography is being used as a cover.



It is not like.

Photography is being used as a cover for assault.

There was a Scottish photographer that was convicted recently.

However he got a stupidly low sentance.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-19413001

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-20205227

However if this issue is outed as a problem and more people complain, then the predators who act like this will then be less likely to come here looking for victims.
Posted 29 July 2013
photostore

Howard, The difference may only be in the number of incidents,if the stories are true ?

and the latest one Iain Knows of ! plus the fact he is accused, tried and convicted, of one of the worst crimes anyone can commit in our society, yet people are still working with him. How can any female ( Model or Photographer) possibly bring themselves to work with him ? directly or indirectly,knowing his past history, do they believe he is innocent ? reformed ? no longer a danger ? I'd really like to hear from those who work with him. Im curious as to how you justify it/ignore it ? Is a good pay day really enough to draw a veil over it ? And no it is never acceptable to assault anyone, and dropping them in front of models (without consent...flashing) has i'd imagine the usual possible outcome if reported.



Photostore

I have issue with the gender specific way that you have said female. I think that the question is how can anyone work for him or buy his products if they know the history?

I do not know.

However I would not buy his products or work with him, given the history, and more to the point the circumstantial rumours that have appeared regularly since his release, that I have read here and on another site.

However that is my choice.  I am an amatuer, so my income does not rely on photography.

If I was a professional and relied on photography for income and a customer was offering good rates, the rent was due, I am not sure whether I would make the same choice.

I like to think that I would, however I am not sure that I would.

David
Posted 29 July 2013
IainT
Photographer
IainT
HowardJ
I'm sure this matter has been raised a number of times on other forums by customers of the company and other producers and nothing has ever happened. It's very well known about by both models and photographers. What's different this time round? How is it different to other members of this site who are well known to offer payments for extras while they've got their pants down in front of the model? Or indeed other people who run well known websites who have sexually assaulted models in the past even while another model is in the next room of their apartment studio?
Because nothing has happened in the past are you saying we should say oh well, if someone has got away with something for 40 years, lets just let him get on with it, because there is obviously nothing can be done. Its no different from the circumstances you mention other than perhaps in frequency and the fact so many people are aware of the ifdentity of a particular offender.
Posted 29 July 2013
Edited by IainT 29 July 2013
photostore
Photographer
photostore
pinkbuildingphotography

Photostore

I have issue with the gender specific way that you have said female. I think that the question is how can anyone work for him or buy his products if they know the history?

I do not know.

However I would not buy his products or work with him, given the history, and more to the point the circumstantial rumours that have appeared regularly since his release, that I have read here and on another site.

However that is my choice.  I am an amatuer, so my income does not rely on photography.

If I was a professional and relied on photography for income and a customer was offering good rates, the rent was due, I am not sure whether I would make the same choice.

I like to think that I would, however I am not sure that I would.

David


I specifically said female as i find it so insideous that any other females, would in any form, be enablers to the continuence of someones existance who does this, 
As for making the hard choice if the rent was due, well that would be easy for me, i'd be winding up and going on the dole ! I'd rather sleep well at night than have the association.


Posted 29 July 2013
Edited by photostore 29 July 2013
HowardJ
Photographer
HowardJ
IainT
Because nothing has happened in the past are you saying we should say oh well, if someone has got away with something for 40 years, lets just let him get on with it, because there is obviously nothing can be done. Its no different from the circumstances you mention other than perhaps in frequency and the fact so many people are aware of the ifdentity of a particular offender.
I think there's quite a few things this individual does that don't comply with the law yet the police don't act. This is one of the many things that's made me lose faith in the legal system in this country. They'll pay £100,000 for speed cameras etc but they won't tackle serious crimes (rapes, burglaries, etc) because they're "difficult" and "time consuming". Can someone explain to me why the police haven't taken any action despite the many reports from models?
Posted 29 July 2013
donnydave
Photographer
donnydave
It seems obvious that the lure of easy money far outweighs the risk for a lot of models, it also seems obvious that a lot of the more well known models must have worked for this company knowing full well the history and reputation of this guy. It's almost beyond my belief that after the countless threads about model safety/level pushing the same models who post in those threads then go work for a known rapist.
If the only way to stop models working with this guy is to hit them in the purse then Maybe it's time we as photographers actually assumed some responcability and told these models that we no longer wished to work with them while they are willing to work for this company.

Posted 29 July 2013
photostore
Photographer
photostore
Howard, the problem lies not only with the police but (is it the crown office in England ?) up here it is the procurator fiscals office
Even after the police investigate, when it gets to these departments it very much depends on "can we be guaranteed a conviction ? if not ? then why waste the cash....it all comes down to cost and budgets for all the various departments i'm afraid
speed cameras are a guaranteed cash cow that make money

Posted 29 July 2013
IainT
Photographer
IainT
HowardJ
I think there's quite a few things this individual does that don't comply with the law yet the police don't act. This is one of the many things that's made me lose faith in the legal system in this country. They'll pay £100,000 for speed cameras etc but they won't tackle serious crimes (rapes, burglaries, etc) because they're "difficult" and "time consuming". Can someone explain to me why the police haven't taken any action despite the many reports from models?
The authorities must take some of the blame for sure, but the circumstances of these assaults make evidence notoriously difficult to collect. For an individual making a complaint it would be almost impossible for the Police to get sufficient evidence to make a case. As I've said repeatedly, the only hope is that victims act together and as it stands there seems to be little combined will to do this, however if this is kept in the public eye, there is far more chance of action being taken than if its just swept asside and put down to being "one of these things"
Posted 29 July 2013
photostore
Photographer
photostore
IainT

however if this is kept in the public eye, there is far more chance of action being taken than if its just swept asside and put down to being "one of these things"


If possible i'd like to see this thread held at the top of the listings forever, anytime it drops below mid range i will personally bump it (sorry mods but it's for a good cause)

Posted 29 July 2013
photostore
Photographer
photostore
I think maybe the title is not getting to the wider audience !many will just ignore "Controversial Subject" maybe it needs RAPE or something equally attention grabbing on the end of it to hit the whole PS membership

Posted 29 July 2013
IainT
Photographer
IainT
photostore
I think maybe the title is not getting to the wider audience !many will just ignore "Controversial Subject" maybe it needs RAPE or something equally attention grabbing on the end of it to hit the whole PS membership
The title was deliberately subdued. I have to be mindful of legal implications for PS, hence why I've asked people to be carefull about what they post on the thread. Remember at present, anything mentioned appart from the the fact that a particular individual is a convicted sex offender is pure hearsay regardless of whether we or I feel it is true, hence why no individual or company should be mentioned.
Posted 29 July 2013
photostore
Photographer
photostore
IainT

The title was deliberately subdued. I have to be mindful of legal implications for PS, hence why I've asked people to be carefull about what they post on the thread. Remember at present, anything mentioned appart from the the fact that a particular individual is a convicted sex offender is pure hearsay regardless of whether we or I feel it is true, hence why no individual or company should be mentioned.


I totally understand that Iain, but  maybe even  a "sticky " quote or otherwise in big red writing from the mods would be helpful, anything at all to draw major attention to it, it may well save a model in the future if it makes them really think twice (about anyone they work with) and do their homework

Posted 29 July 2013
HowardJ
Photographer
HowardJ
Not many people read the forum on this site particularly the models.

Posted 29 July 2013
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