TF* vs Paid shoots

26 posts
16 Nov 2014
marlhamphoto
Photographer
marlhamphoto
Chrissie_Red

I only think I've done...

I probably shouldn't have used the term creative input the way I did. What I had in my mind was determining the scope of what's shot during a session. So if I say I want to shoot art nudes in the scottish highlands then clearly I'm going to need your modelling ability and best interpretation of my objectives in order to make the shoot worthwhile. However if you were to turn round and say that's fine but I want to shoot some editorial, or whatever, because I've got plenty of fancy nudes but no editorial in my port, then that's an extension of the scope of the shoot which to me is suggestive of TF - I'll shoot what you want if you'll shoot what I want (and if both objectives collide so much the better). That's what I had in mind but clearly didn't express it very well.
Posted 21 Nov 2014
marlhamphoto
Photographer
marlhamphoto
samanthajane4

Its an agreement i use when i feel we both have something to gain but in not need of many images, Good way of getting just a smaller selection of images and making the shoot worthwhile financially too

Sam x


I'd hazard a guess that there's an inverse correlation between the number of images a model receives from a TF shoot and the value she derives from them. So basically you're saying you want a higher value product than if you did a TF but you want paying for it too?

Don't get me wrong - if you can pull it off go for it
Posted 21 Nov 2014
marlhamphoto
Photographer
marlhamphoto
samanthajane4

I guess using that theory if the photographer has a set idea in their head for a TF shoot and the model likes the idea but not enough to add to their folio but thinks the photographer is good enough to work with and was seeking a paid shoot could discuss splitting shoot into what both parts.

What upselling a TF into a part-paid? Smart cookie alert guys!


[with apologies if that sounds condescending!]
Posted 21 Nov 2014
Edited by marlhamphoto 21 Nov 2014
Thanks i thinks, hehe.

I agree the value of images from a tf far out weighs the financial gain, after all without images we cant get any work.
If however the photographer wanted to shoot something I already have alot of for my port i would not agree to a TF as it would not benefit me, But if the photographer or myself are un-able to free up the space for a longer shoot allowing my input on theme's/idea's then i would suggest we keep length of shoot and i would to on a part paid basis.

Sam x

Posted 21 Nov 2014
marlhamphoto

I probably shouldn't have used the term creative input the way I did. What I had in my mind was determining the scope of what's shot during a session. So if I say I want to shoot art nudes in the scottish highlands then clearly I'm going to need your modelling ability and best interpretation of my objectives in order to make the shoot worthwhile. However if you were to turn round and say that's fine but I want to shoot some editorial, or whatever, because I've got plenty of fancy nudes but no editorial in my port, then that's an extension of the scope of the shoot which to me is suggestive of TF - I'll shoot what you want if you'll shoot what I want (and if both objectives collide so much the better). That's what I had in mind but clearly didn't express it very well.



Ohh right!

I get what you mean, I agree with you in that changing the entire theme of the shoot isn't really going to benefit the photographer. Its not cool doing that!
i remember being booked for a natural nude shoot - shooting from my old home studio and 2 days before it the photographer said to me "I'm bringing a DIY swimming pool, which is 6ft by 6ft.. is that cool?" - Urm... to bring a somewhat shaky swimming pool into my rented flat on the carpet that doesn't belong to me... no. Then he tried to find out if I had any "beams/rafters or a secure ceiling" so he could have me hanging from it. I had never experienced such a requests so close to the shoot date before lol. 

I was once left a little "peeved" after a collaborative shoot - prior to the shoot we agreed on neutral/natural colours - authumnal themed relatex clothed stuff emphisising my freckles/red hair. After 20 minutes of that style the photographer said to me "would be great to do some nudes now" - I had guessed she had shot "the one" from the first set so we did some nudes to benefit her portfolio. After the shoot I seen a few nude shots pop up online (never sent to my inbox). Afte a year she PM'd me saying "Somebody told me that you never recieved the pictures, I presumed you would just take them from my flickr/facebook". 

I never seen any from the other sets we did, just the ones that benefited her portfolio. If I could go back in time and charge her from the outset I would have. Total waste of my time!

I have been known though on a day shoot thats going well to maybe model over the designated time if something awesome pops up - sometimes its not within the theme the photographer had in his plans but its usually discussed and agreed that the extra time is just a mess about and not on the clock.


Posted 21 Nov 2014
marlhamphoto
Photographer
marlhamphoto
I agree, TF is often a cause of much trouble and strife.

If a new local model messages me and enquires about a TF I'll generally agree to it and shoot what I hope would be some sound starter images for her port. I'll also be reasonably confident about shooting something with a little more edge/appeal too. Low risk - in terms of fulfilling her expectations - but I'd also be reasonably confident of getting something for myself too.

If an experienced model says to me lets hook up and spend the day shooting whatever takes our fancy then no problem. There's no hard and fast expectations. There's also an understanding that sometimes things just don't work out even though you both hope it will. No major fall out if it doesn't gel. But invariably a pleasant day. This is how I would describe most of my TFs.

But I'm not very keen at all if I think a model has a precise or tightly defined objective. It's always going to be a challenge to deliver exactly what she has in her mind. And nobody wants a model to go away less than happy. So, being a wimp, I run a mile from those unless it's with someone I know very well.

I think successful TF relies on both parties understanding that results simply can't be guaranteed - and in fact a relaxed approach might be more productive anyway. But also on both parties recognising each other's capabilities and limitations properly.
Posted 21 Nov 2014
Edited by marlhamphoto 21 Nov 2014
Could not agree more in general with you.
Only once I have had an exact type of image I wanted to create but done that with a photographer I had worked with many times so there was no huge pressure if it went wrong as we both knew we would still have great images to use either way. As it turns out got the image I wanted and it was even better than I had expected.

Sam x

Posted 21 Nov 2014
PaulCrick
Photographer
PaulCrick
We do all three of the scenarios, we are happy to do TFP in which we usually give two 8" x 12" prints for each hour modelled, plus the best of the images fully processed and watermarked for internet usage. We are also happy to do a part payment in cash and a large framed image of their choice. Otherwise when funds are available we are happy to pay the model in cash and they do not get any images.

But we are also open to revive payment form the model, if they want a wall print creating or have a specific idea that they wish to create for their portfolios.


Posted 23 Nov 2014
Edited by PaulCrick 23 Nov 2014
riddell
Photographer
riddell

Its whatever you agree on.

Things will vary a lot dependant upon the calibre of the model and / or photographer and who is initiating the deal and what its for.

In my case in general everyone gets paid, models, MUAs, stylists etc. but its the client that will be paying them, not me. We all turn up and rarely would a model, MUA, stylist etc. get a copy of the images, unless its a low paid job when I would insist on it on their behalf because I know I'm generally dealing with less experienced models / MUAs etc. accepting those rates and I'm sure they'll appreciate the images.

But then a lot of the time as my work will be published somewhere and I'll let the team know so they can buy the magazine or get hold of the work however and have a tear sheet which is more valuable anyway. Or otherwise link to a website or take screen shots for that website, which again if its a decent site is worth something.

Posted 24 Nov 2014
paulbatterbury
Photographer
paulbatterbury
This is really a very common issue, so common that I don't think many people don't post about it as it is the norm. I recently worked with a 2 models (separate shoots) who were very nice to work with, we produced some website content and both girl liked the work I was producing, One has not asked for images, but made a note on twitter, a month after, and as other people said I don't have to send her anything, after all she was paid (and paid or not) I hold the copyright. The second model had a look at my other work, and saw several images she liked and wanted to recreate and asked me if I would shoot her portfolio. I said "yes, that would be nice" but then there was a silence and no mention of money. a week or two later she got back in touch, not only did she want me to pay her for shooting, she also wanted me to cover her travel, and food... remember She want to recreate shots I already have and shoot her portfolio. These are only 2 girls over the 10 years I been shooting. The things is, things are very one sided when it does come to model, who are looking out solely for there own interests, we often here about their costs of travel, clothes and make up they will quickly forget photographers costs, time etc. The best way to deal with it is to grow a thick skin, be polite, don't commit and never lose you temper during a shoot, or you will ruin the work from that shoot you are currently on. Never give anything away for free, you will recent it later.
Posted 27 Nov 2014
andrew_gibbins
Photographer
andrew_gibbins
Why is this even a discussion? If a photographer pay for a model, then the images is his/hers only. If the photographer wanna give away some images to the model, thats up to the photographer. The model has no claim to them, as she already has been compensated for her time. If a model wants her copies of the images, then we talk TFP automatically. Which is a fair deal. Thats like having it both ways, which doesn't work very well. So, either I shoot TFP, where I cooperate with the model and she gets her share of the images, or I pay the model, where I expect the model to do her job and get me the images I want. I do, however, always like working with creative models, as it presents a much better work environment, than a model who has no clue whats going on. And those times I come across models with some creativity, the results have been awesome
Posted 14 Jan 2015
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