Seen it all now!

81 posts
8 Oct 2008
simplydivine
Make Up Artist
simplydivine
Well girls ( and guys) this has got to be the best " will you work for free" advert  I have seen .. this really takes the biscuit... It's not from this site but thought i would share it with you :

QUOTE: "My mum has a budget and already has a MUA but cannot afford to get her three daughters (bridesmaids) hair and makeup done. As it stands we are quite happy to do it ourselves but I thought I would ask if anyone would be interested in doing it on a TFP basis. The wedding has a photographer all day so the shots will be professional.
Mail me, we are not looking for anything too drastic just loose curls, natural makeup, with some nice colours and effects for our eyes."

Maybe its just me .. but 3 bridesmaids , hair and make up ... got to be at least 4 hours work if not more... using products ( make up and hair styling products ) travel costs  and in return you may get a couple of prints that you can put in your port, or not  if non of the images taken show the make up off to its best.

Glad it wasn't in my area or I would have been jumping at the chance to work for free, or actually be out of pocket !!

I'm starting to despair ..sigh !!!

( gets off soap box  LOL )

Karen xxxxx
Posted 8 Oct 2008
ClaireShipman
Make Up Artist
ClaireShipma..
I couldnt believe what I was reading when I read this (On the dark side)

The cheek of some people, some mug will probably do it as well.

Ah well, Sigh...

xx
Posted 8 Oct 2008
simplydivine
Make Up Artist
simplydivine
I know just when I thought nothing could surprise me anymore LMAO!!! and you're right some mug probably will do it... but i really hope even the most new MUA's will see this as just taking the ****
*double sigh *LOL Karen x
Posted 9 Oct 2008
Tracy79
Make Up Artist
Tracy79
 This is awful!! Would they go into a salon and ask for 4 hours work without payment? What a cheek! It's getting worse out there that no one wants to pay anymore. Our kits cost so much money not to mention petrol and the credit crunch. Jeez!

Tracy. x
Posted 11 Oct 2008
simplydivine
Make Up Artist
simplydivine

Well ladies/gents
this has caused quite a stir on this other site, The poster of this request just doesn't seem to "get it" !! apparently she now has a well established MUA to do this work which is great for her... the MUA in question apparently says that not enough people help others out !!!
I wish I could afford the luxury of doing our job for the pure enjoyment of it ( whilst i do love my job ) it is a JOB and as a single mother trying to earn a living I cant work for nothing.. and I'm sure a lot of you are in the same positon.
As the last poster says ... it's getting really bad out there. It comes to something when you are made to feel bad about NOT working for free.
The poster seems to think everyone is having a go at her because some of us MUA's dare to say .. you are asking to much!!
My final point is that whilst there are MUA's prepared to do about 4 hours work approximately £200 worth of work for nothing then it will be increasing harder for us to get paid work and maintain a professional image for what we do!
MUA's you are selling yourself cheaply if you do this and selling the rest of us out.
I will also add that i am not talking about new MUA's who need to build a port, or the occasional collaboration where it benefits all, I am not stupid and know that there exceptions to the rule, but on the whole, we will continually struggle to get paid work like this, if people will work for free!
some times I dispair lol *sigh*
Karen x

Posted 13 Oct 2008
squodge
Photographer
squodge
Thing is, you get places like Toni & Guy offering free haircuts on Wednesday afternoons or free cuts any weekday for men, so would you say they're undercutting other hair salons?  And they're experts at their game as well.
And then you look at events venues where photographers all crowd around like vultures, snapping thousands of shots for magazines and websites, and most if not all of them will get paid zero for their efforts - all the the sake of getting published.
And models everywhere will get free shoots by offering themselves 'for free', i.e. TFP shoots.
And now we come to MUAs.  I'm sure I've seen free makeovers in shopping malls before.  And they normally have experienced MUAs using well-known products.  So would you say that these free makeovers are stealing jobs from MUAs?
Thing is, all of us want something for free - me included.  And some people aren't willing to give up their time 'for free'.  It all depends on what you mean by 'for free'.  If you mean you're doing MU for someone and you're literally getting nothing in return - i.e. not even one photo or a name mention - only then can you say it's free.  If I were a MUA and was asked by an experienced photographer-model-stylist combination for make-up help 'for free', I'm sure I'd have difficulty turning them down.
There's obvious a line that we just don't cross, and we say "no way, it's just way beyond what I'd expect to do for TFP".  In that respect, you have every right to refuse the job or to request a higher rate.  The secret is persuading your client to part with money; and part of that secret is marketing.  That's what every industry relies on - marketing.  And I'll guess that some of the best ever MUAs got to where they are now by offering their services 'for free'.  You need to invest [whether it's money or time] to achieve things in life - there's no other way to do it, it's 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration, I'm afraid.
~ squodge ~
Posted 13 Oct 2008
simplydivine

Well ladies/gents
this has caused quite a stir on this other site, The poster of this request just doesn't seem to "get it" !! apparently she now has a well established MUA to do this work which is great for her... the MUA in question apparently says that not enough people help others out !!!
I wish I could afford the luxury of doing our job for the pure enjoyment of it ( whilst i do love my job ) it is a JOB and as a single mother trying to earn a living I cant work for nothing.. and I'm sure a lot of you are in the same positon.
As the last poster says ... it's getting really bad out there. It comes to something when you are made to feel bad about NOT working for free.
The poster seems to think everyone is having a go at her because some of us MUA's dare to say .. you are asking to much!!
My final point is that whilst there are MUA's prepared to do about 4 hours work approximately £200 worth of work for nothing then it will be increasing harder for us to get paid work and maintain a professional image for what we do!
MUA's you are selling yourself cheaply if you do this and selling the rest of us out.
I will also add that i am not talking about new MUA's who need to build a port, or the occasional collaboration where it benefits all, I am not stupid and know that there exceptions to the rule, but on the whole, we will continually struggle to get paid work like this, if people will work for free!
some times I dispair lol *sigh*
Karen x

 

I'm sorry to say it's the nature of the model internet sites that they attract more than their fair share of freeloaders and for anyone involved in the industry be they  MUAs, models or photographers out to earn a living I'll simply say they're not the place to be. These sites are doing little to promote the professions of those amongst us who rely upon our respective skill sets as a means of earning our living and serve no purpose beyond devaluing what we do. The very thought that anyone on these sites should even suggest being paid is virtually becoming tantamount to being a swear word.

I earned a pretty respectable sum of money during the last month from my photography with not a single penny of it coming from the model internet sites. If you want the money then the answer is to get out into the real world and market yourself to those that are willing to part with their pennies because you sure as hell wont find many willing to do that around here.
Posted 13 Oct 2008
Edited by WhiteHorse 14 Oct 2008
simplydivine
Make Up Artist
simplydivine
And now we come to MUAs.  I'm sure I've seen free makeovers in shopping malls before.  And they normally have experienced MUAs using well-known products.  So would you say that these free makeovers are stealing jobs from MUAs?
Thing is, all of us want something for free - me included.  And some people aren't willing to give up their time 'for free'.  It all depends on what you mean by 'for free'.  If you mean you're doing MU for someone and you're literally getting nothing in return - i.e. not even one photo or a name mention - only then can you say it's free.  If I were a MUA and was asked by an experienced photographer-model-stylist combination for make-up help 'for free', I'm sure I'd have difficulty turning them down.


Did you even read my OP ??
I wasn't talking about make up girls on counters ( who incidentally are NOT MUA's they are sales girls   who offer free make overs to customers in a bid to sell products which they get commission on and who are paid a basis wage to stand in a store and badly apply make up to passers by !
Im sure lots of people want things for free especially freeloaders on these sites, but my OP was pertaining to someone who was wanting  make up and hair done for a wedding for 3 girls ... a lot of work ! in exchange there was an offer of prints from the wedding , which I pointed out possibly will not be of any use to the MUA to add to her folio as they generally dont show up the make up that well , so in return for around £200 worth of work or more for some MUA's she may get a couple of images. there was no mention of covering costs of make up hair products and even petrol fro the MUA!!! So in my opinion it was a lot of work for practically NOTHING in return!!
I wasn't however talking being asked to work for an experinced tog and model on an interesting collaboration in return for prints or a cd ... I myself have indeed done many shoots like this with very experienced models and togs !!!!! But after awhile it does get easy to turn even them down as the tog and model get the most kudos from these shoots! And bills need to be paid .. surprisingly I cant go to the supermarket and offer to make up the checkout girls in exchange for my shopping, nor does the landlord want his make up hair or nails done in return for the rent .. you surely got my point...
I put this post on the MUA general forum , to let other MUA's out there know what was being asked of us and to be in support of my peers, as sometimes no matter what we say, we seem to be looked upon as the devils spawn for even daring to think we should get paid for WORKING !!!
regards
Karen
Posted 14 Oct 2008
simplydivine
Make Up Artist
simplydivine

I'm sorry to say it's the nature of the model internet sites that they attract more than their fair share of freeloaders and for anyone involved in the industry be they  MUAs, models or photographers out to earn a living I'll simply say they're not the place to be. These sites are doing little to promote the professions of those amongst us who rely upon our respective skill sets as a means of earning our living and serve no purpose beyond devaluing what we do. The very thought that anyone on these sites should even suggest being paid is virtually becoming tantamount to being a swear word.

I earned a pretty respectable sum of money during the last month from my photography with not a single penny of it coming from the model internet sites. If you want the money then the answer is to get out into the real world and market yourself to those that are willing to part with their pennies because you sure as hell wont find many willing to do that around here.


I am well aware it is the nature of these sites and the amount of freelaoders on here, however i have got a fair amount of paid work from them too, and it is somewhere to showcase our work .... I agree that these kind of sites are continuallu devaluing what we do and THAT WAS THE POINT I WAS TRYING TO MAKE with my OP !
I too earn some money from outside these sites .. if i relied solely on these sites i'd never eat .. LMAO .. 
For your information I am in the real world .. I do market myself !... I also have a marketing consultant who advises me!, I advertise in press and on the web, I have my own website, I do wedding fairs and promotional work etc etc etc .... I am not a stupid person even if i do work with lipstick!!!  I understand what these sites are about, its just a shame that in a network of like minded individulals we can't seem to support each other , maybe i should take off these rose tinted glasses huh!!!!
regards
Karen
 

Posted 14 Oct 2008
ClaireShipman
Make Up Artist
ClaireShipma..
squodge

getting published.
And models everywhere will get free shoots by offering themselves 'for free', i.e. TFP shoots.
And now we come to MUAs.  I'm sure I've seen free makeovers in shopping malls before.  And they normally have experienced MUAs using well-known products.  So would you say that these free makeovers are stealing jobs from MUAs?
~ squodge ~

Squodge,

Mua's in a shopping mall (if thats what you want to call them) are just sales reps they actually have a week or less training in make up but months training on how to promote and sell sell sell the companies products.

I have had plenty of 'free' makeovers in shopping malls when testing out their products and let me tell you the pressure they put you under to sell products is awful, you actually feel guilty for not buying anything, after all that is what they are there for, they have a managers monthly deadline of sales to meet. They dont do any kind of professional make up, they just know about the products they are there to sell therefore they are no comparison to what we do, so I'm unsure how they would ever take our jobs? We are also freelance, they get paid a wage because they work in a shop at the end of the day.

I feel your post is way off topic. lets get back on track... would you shoot a wedding for free?

Claire
Posted 14 Oct 2008
simplydivine
Make Up Artist
simplydivine
DITTO Claire !!
thats kinda what i was saying but you put it better !! lol
hear hear !
Karen xxxx
Posted 14 Oct 2008
LylacBlush

Squodge,

I feel your post is way off topic. lets get back on track... would you shoot a wedding for free?

Claire


Jason might not but I'm sure there are plenty of photographers ( mugs ) that will!

Posted 14 Oct 2008
Tracy79
Make Up Artist
Tracy79
 Quote from sqodge.
"Thing is, you get places like Toni & Guy offering free haircuts on Wednesday afternoons or free cuts any weekday for men, so would you say they're undercutting other hair salons?  And they're experts at their game as well."




The free haircuts are usually the graduate stylist (just out of training), they do this to attract clients. Whilst they are in they do their upmost to get you to rebook and even offer you a discount to entice you to book. After a couple of cuts they should be a paying client to that salon. Point is they are not estabished stylists but they work under the top salon name and the money comes back to the salon once they have built a clientelle.

Make-up artists that have had years of training also give away the odd freebie in quiet times (folio building). However to work for free constantly is a sin. Some (not all artists) have a very expensive kit to keep up to date. I can assure you that no salon would do a wedding for free. Believe me I've worked with two of the best companies in Scotland. Nothing is for free. It's upsetting that people expect it to be



Posted 14 Oct 2008
Edited by Tracy79 14 Oct 2008
Tracy79
Make Up Artist
Tracy79
Also I second the comment about a lot of artists not being trained in application. It's all about the sales. I worked for Dior and I was shocked to learn a few of the girls had no training what's so ever. One was a geography student doing the counter work for the summer. I thought this degraded all the training I had done and so I left.

Posted 14 Oct 2008
simplydivine
Make Up Artist
simplydivine

Squodge ... Myself and the other MUA's here have covered most of your come back, in additon to the likes of Toni and Guy doing free haircuts also i might add they are also getting paid to work there, and its better that they practise cutting hair than stand around makeing coffee for their wages..as are the sales counter ( MUA's as you like to call them )
As the other girls have pointed out in more detail than i did in answer to you, they then put lots of pressure on ladies to buy products (both the shopping mall girls and hair dressers ) as they make lots of commission on them.
the counter girls are NOT trained in application of make up apart from a few days or week induction and only in the particular product they will be selling.
white horse ....As for any photographer doing a wedding for free .. i have never known anyone to do that in my 12 years in the wedding industry, and even you your self say " some mug will" so would we be mugs to do 4 hours or more work for a wedding for a couple of probably none usuable images which was MY POINT IN MY OP!!!!!  why should we do it.
regards Karen

Posted 14 Oct 2008
Edited by simplydivine 14 Oct 2008
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