TF* vs Paid shoots

26 posts
16 Nov 2014
KNPhoto
Photographer
KNPhoto
Hello all,

Just a quick question regarding Paid shoots. If paying a model, is it standard to furnish them with edited photos or is it assumed that they get the payment in exchange for their time?

A model has approached me for advice saying she was paid for the shoot and now the photographer is charging for copies of the images. Nothing was agreed beforehand except the payment for the model's time. No model release signed either.

I said that I suspected he was well within his rights to do this as he owns the images but was wondering, especially as I am soon to be looking to pay models, is this the done thing?

When TFP/TFCD means time in exchange for photographs, should the photographer then be obliged to provide images on a paid shoot at the model's request?

Help appreciated.


Posted 16 Nov 2014
Gerry99111
Photographer
Gerry99111
No obligation on the photographer to provide images on a paid shoot unless that was discussed and agreed prior to the shoot as part of the deal.

Sounds like the model can't be arsed to do any TF to get portfolio images

Posted 16 Nov 2014
KNPhoto
Photographer
KNPhoto
Gerry99111
No obligation on the photographer to provide images on a paid shoot unless that was discussed and agreed prior to the shoot as part of the deal. Sounds like the model can't be arsed to do any TF to get portfolio images
thanks for the reply. To be fair to the model, she is a lot more experienced in front of the camera as the photographer is behind, hence the payment. I don't think she expected to get anything of benefit if it were a TF but you roll your dice and take your chances I guess. You have confirmed what I thought. I am reasonably comfortable on copyright law etc but wondered what the general etiquette was.
Posted 16 Nov 2014
marlhamphoto
Photographer
marlhamphoto
Gerry99111

No obligation on the photographer to provide images on a paid shoot unless that was discussed and agreed prior to the shoot as part of the deal.

Whilst that's certainly the case the situation is somewhat muddied by the plethora of photographers who freely give edited images following paid shoots - it's very much the norm rather than the exception. So whilst many models will say they don't expect images from paid shoots they roll in nonetheless. And the danger is that what models see as widespread practice becomes tantamount to an expectation, or very close to it. You say the model is experienced and if that's the case it does sound as if she's being a bit disingenuous - particularly if she's dragging you into it.

Best advice is for both parties to be very clear about their expectations before a shoot and to realise that anything else is down to negotiation.
Posted 16 Nov 2014
Edited by marlhamphoto 16 Nov 2014
KNPhoto
Photographer
KNPhoto
marlhamphoto
Whilst that's certainly the case the situation is somewhat muddied by the plethora of photographers who freely give edited images following paid shoots - it's very much the norm rather than the exception. So whilst many models will say they don't expect images from paid shoots they roll in nonetheless. And the danger is that what models see as widespread practice becomes tantamount to an expectation, or very close to it. You say the model is experienced and if that's the case it does sound as if she's being a bit disingenuous - particularly if she's dragging you into it. Best advice is for both parties to be very clear about their expectations before a shoot and to realise that anything else is down to negotiation.
Thanks for the reply - I agree that handing many photographers fail to see the value in their images and will hand them out. That goes from my experience as a commercial photographer mainly. The industry suffers greatly as a result. I haven't been acting as negotiator or anything for this case - that's not my place. Her asking just made me realise a deficit in my own knowledge base. I have been on The AOP site for model release forms but are there any others I/We should be aware of?
Posted 16 Nov 2014
Gerry99111
Photographer
Gerry99111
KNPhoto

Thanks for the reply - I agree that handing many photographers fail to see the value in their images and will hand them out. That goes from my experience as a commercial photographer mainly. The industry suffers greatly as a result. I haven't been acting as negotiator or anything for this case - that's not my place. Her asking just made me realise a deficit in my own knowledge base. I have been on The AOP site for model release forms but are there any others I/We should be aware of?


That is though not the problem of us photographers. That is the models problem who assumed or expected to get images and is not entitled to any and has been offered the chance to buy them but not given them free. Other photographers may choose not to sell them because they have no interest in that.

If models want images from a shoot, they should bring that up before the shoot is negotiated and that can be included in the negotiation or excluded from the shoot or it can be decided that the shoot wont happen as the terms cannot be agreed.

I don't see how the photographer needs to feel they have lost out in this. If they want to give some images as a bonus, that is within their right but they certainly should not feel that something brought up after the shoot should put them in a position they are not happy with. When the shoot has finished, unless images were agreed before hand, that is the end of the photographers obligation, the model was paid for their time and anything else that may be asked for is a new negotiation that can be commenced or not as the interest applies
Posted 16 Nov 2014
marlhamphoto
Photographer
marlhamphoto
KNPhoto

I have been on The AOP site for model release forms but are there any others I/We should be aware of?

I'm not sure why you've brought up the issue of model releases?

If a photographer commissions a model for a shoot with the intention of publication then he will provide a model release that's appropriate for his intended publisher. If the model is happy with the release (it's not unreasonable for her to request a copy for inspection in advance) then she should sign it. This is mainly relevant to photographers who shoot porn for publication on sites hosted in the USA. If the model is unhappy with images of her being potentially used on US porn sites then she should not sign a release - even if the photographer says that's not his intention IMO.

In the UK a model release has no relevance in law as a model has no rights to 'release' anyway. Although depending on how the 'release' is worded it may have unintended consequences for either party.

I suspect what you meant to refer to is a usage license for the model so she can use the images - which is not the same thing as a model release.
Posted 16 Nov 2014
Edited by marlhamphoto 16 Nov 2014
From my point of view I would never expect any images from any paid work, If the photographer was kind enough to send them over or offer to send some over then that is a great bonus.
If i was expecting images I would either agree to a TF, Part piad/Part TF or agree a price per image that i wanted prior to the shoot.

I know a few photographers who charge for images from a paid shoot or are willing to do them all for the fee they paid to the model for the shoot, Therefor turning it into a TF type of agreement.

Sam x

Posted 17 Nov 2014
OldMaster
Photographer
OldMaster
A model should not expect images from a paid shoot unless agreed at the booking..as has been said. However the offer of edited pictures may certainly become a part of the deal reducing the rate on the day...which is nice!!

Posted 21 Nov 2014
marlhamphoto
Photographer
marlhamphoto
OldMaster

A model should not expect images from a paid shoot unless agreed at the booking..as has been said. However the offer of edited pictures may certainly become a part of the deal reducing the rate on the day...which is nice!!


I can't say I've ever encountered a model who's expressed an interest in part-paid. Only either TF or paid, never something in the middle. Is it really a common arrangement?
Posted 21 Nov 2014
Plymjack
Photographer
Plymjack
I have shot models on this basis.... gives them some input into the shoot for what they might want. Or when then want to try a new level but are not sure.

Posted 21 Nov 2014
marlhamphoto
Photographer
marlhamphoto
Plymjack

I have shot models on this basis.... gives them some input into the shoot for what they might want. Or when then want to try a new level but are not sure.

Thanks for the explanation.

But the way you describe it makes me think it would be an even less common occurence. If the model has creative input then surely that's the same as TF - but you're paying her as well??

I kinda thought part-paid would run along the lines of a photographer casting for a paid model for a specific idea, model responds saying she really like the idea and her full rate is £xx but if you're willing to let her have a couple of the finished edits she'll discount her rate by x%. I can see some sense in that even though it's not something I've experienced.

But i can't see how offering a model creative input AND paying her would be a particularly attractive proposition for a photographer. But I guess there are no hard and fast rules.
Posted 21 Nov 2014
Edited by marlhamphoto 21 Nov 2014
marlhamphoto

I can't say I've ever encountered a model who's expressed an interest in part-paid. Only either TF or paid, never something in the middle. Is it really a common arrangement?


Its an agreement i use when i feel we both have something to gain but in not need of many images, Good way of getting just a smaller selection of images and making the shoot worthwhile financially too

Sam x
Posted 21 Nov 2014
marlhamphoto



But i can't see how offering a model creative input AND paying her would be a particularly attractive proposition for a photographer. But I guess there are no hard and fast rules.


I only think I've done 1 or two shoots in my entire modelling life that has been 100% controlled by the photographer.

Infact one of those shoots the photographer was micromanagaing to the point that it was seriously detrimental to the finished images - this was a TF shoot but my input was ignored for the first 2 hours. After a couple of hours I mentally thought "fuck this" and just started posing as I normally would and he said "this is what I wanted" - if he had stopped telling me my pinky was in the wrong place or that my elbow needed turned around or my foot needed moved an inch then he would have got "the shot" much much quicker. 

Its fairly common place for inexperienced photographers to book an experienced model so that he can learn from her/him. I have had shoots where the only thing i've not done is press the shutter.. (actually in one shoot the photographer was pouring water on me so I actually held the remote in that instance). On studio days we get very new photographers who maybe haven't done model shoots before, they aren't used to communicating so the model does take the lead (if we didn't we would be stood there like lemons for the entire shoot). By the end of the session they are usually "brave" enough to suggest a slight movement of the head or moving the hair out the way - so I always think "good on them". 

Many experienced photographers I know specifically book a creative model because they value the models input to the shoot. I usually get booked by people like that, we will find a location and he will set up his camera and I will pose - its quite rare for people to direct me when I'm on location. I do some poses, we both look at the back of the camera and if I think I can do something better then I will go do it again better. 

It doesn't mean I get any images back from the shoots - however I want people to get the best images they possibly can from working with me, I want to look good in images and want them to have images to be proud to show on their portfolio.

I'm kind of glad most of the people I work with value my input when it comes to styling/posing because to me and other models thats as much a part of the job as the "looking pretty" (I probably over compensate because im an old has been) but its always appreciated.
Posted 21 Nov 2014
marlhamphoto

Thanks for the explanation.

But the way you describe it makes me think it would be an even less common occurence. If the model has creative input then surely that's the same as TF - but you're paying her as well??

I kinda thought part-paid would run along the lines of a photographer casting for a paid model for a specific idea, model responds saying she really like the idea and her full rate is £xx but if you're willing to let her have a couple of the finished edits she'll discount her rate by x%. I can see some sense in that even though it's not something I've experienced.

But i can't see how offering a model creative input AND paying her would be a particularly attractive proposition for a photographer. But I guess there are no hard and fast rules.


I guess using that theory if the photographer has a set idea in their head for a TF shoot and the model likes the idea but not enough to add to their folio but thinks the photographer is good enough to work with and was seeking a paid shoot could discuss splitting shoot into what both parts.

When agreeing to a part tf shoot instead of for example £55 for 2 hours i would suggest around the £30 point. If photographer planned on 10 images in return i would agree on 4-5 images

Sam x
Posted 21 Nov 2014
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