Why shouldn,t I pay the model!

Why shouldn,t I pay the model!

26 posts
23 Feb 2014
MaoZhu
Photographer
MaoZhu
"Why shouldn't I pay the model!"

The words of one of the greatest photographers of our age David Bailey, when questioned about people that pose for his photographs, including ordinary people in ordinary places at his latest exhibition.

If Bailey feels that it is right to pay anyone that he asks to photograph why is it some models are pushed and pushed by photographers to do so many TF's.

In my opinion Bailey has the right attitude, when you ask someone to pose in front your camera you are employing them so payment should be the norm. OK, if you are asked to photograph somebody then you do not pay, or should be paid.
Perhaps there would be a lot more willing and happy photographers and models if we all learnt a lesson from Bailey.

Posted 23 Feb 2014
Edited by MaoZhu 23 Feb 2014
How can I argue with this one!? Agreed, if the model asks, you dont pay her, and if your fab, you can get paid too!
Posted 23 Feb 2014
Edited by IvyLaBomba 23 Feb 2014
MaoZhu

"Why shouldn't I pay the model!" The words of one of the greatest photographers of our age David Bailey, when questioned about people that pose for his photographs, including ordinary people in ordinary places at his latest exhibition. If Bailey feels that it is right to pay anyone that he asks to photograph why is it some models are pushed and pushed by photographers to do so many TF's. In my opinion Bailey has the right attitude, when you ask someone to pose in front your camera you are employing them so payment should be the norm. OK, if you are asked to photograph somebody then you do not pay, or should be paid. Perhaps there would be a lot more willing and happy photographers and models if we all learnt a lesson from Bailey.


What if he is only testing out his lights, or if he doesn't want to profit off the images.... or..... if he genuinely believes he can benefit the models portfolio... or if he doesn't have any money left over from buying his kit.. Or.. if he can get a not so good version of the model/subject for free?

I guess though when people genuinely respect and value one another then parting with some money isn't a "big deal" - especially if it helps them/their passion.

Posted 23 Feb 2014
Gerry99111
Photographer
Gerry99111
MaoZhu

"Why shouldn't I pay the model!" .


If I was rich enough I would book models and shoot want I want and never collaborate. If I was rich enough, I wouldn't need to be paid, so models would never get the opportunity to collaborate with me.

Maybe Bailey is not interested in collaborating?

People collaborate if they have something of worth to trade so its not quite the same thing - you are trading or swapping the opportunity to have input into the shoot for the models time. People collaborate because they are not rich enough to hire, enjoy the process of collaboration and make up for their lack of cash by having a skill that others are willing to trade.
Posted 23 Feb 2014
pinkbuildingphotography
Photographer
pinkbuilding..
Payment can be made in several ways. Time for pints, exchange of goods, or money.

Personally, I prefer paying money, as it allows me freedom to do what I want, when I want with pictures.

I can edit them when I want etc and not have to worry about another persons needs such as needing pictures for their port etc.

Posted 23 Feb 2014
keithpics
Photographer
keithpics
I'm with David Bailey. I've often wondered how many TF shoots actually do benefit the model's portfolio to the point they end up getting paid work. By 'paid' I mean hard cash, not images, biscuits, etc.

Posted 23 Feb 2014
Two_stops
Photographer
Two_stops
I wish he'd said why shouldn't the photographer get paid.

John
Posted 23 Feb 2014
Jack_Russell
Photographer
Jack_Russell
Because the money isn't coming from his pocket..... He doesn't shoot for 'fun'; if he is shooting a model and paying her he will already have a commission lined up to recompense his outgoings.

Not everybody is in his fortunate position to be to do so.

Posted 23 Feb 2014
OldMaster
Photographer
OldMaster
..."I wish he'd said why shouldn't the photographer get paid"..been there too often now! Doesn't happen unless they are "fab" which is generally taken to mean that the model will get more paid work from it. No good doing arty-farty shoots because they are generally worthless to the model?


But I also object to this..."and not have to worry about another persons needs such as needing pictures"..not a good starting point for a good working relationship I would suggest? I understand of course if you are paying the model there is "no requirement" to provide pictures but look at it other ways...1) If they use your pics with a credit it is better publicity for you. 2) It increases the chance of continuing a working relationship on good terms and probably with more flexibility on rates next time. Unless you believe you are going to get the best pictures of your model on your first shoot then it goes without saying building a longer term relationship is beneficial. 3) There is just something so selfish about the wording in this.."and not have to worry about another person's needs" kind of says it all!

I will continue to supply fully edited images to my models from the whole shoot regardless of whether it is TF or paid. It is a collaboration and it takes two to create pictures. OK, the photographer pays but equally has all the rights to do with the pictures as they please whereas the model at best is limited to using them only for personal promotion.

Frankly as virtually all the work on here is of little or no commercial value I see all shoots as a mutual arrangement and see no harm in both parties benefitting? If you were shooting for commercial clients of course the whole set up is different, even the tog gets paid..but images for Purestorm, don't think so?

Posted 23 Feb 2014
OldMaster
Photographer
OldMaster
Going to see Bailey's exhibition tomorrow!!

Posted 23 Feb 2014
MaoZhu
Photographer
MaoZhu
Jack_Russell
Because the money isn't coming from his pocket..... He doesn't shoot for 'fun'; if he is shooting a model and paying her he will already have a commission lined up to recompense his outgoings. Not everybody is in his fortunate position to be to do so.
He was talking particularly about a trip he went on for himself, not a work trip.
Posted 23 Feb 2014
MaoZhu
Photographer
MaoZhu
OldMaster
Going to see Bailey's exhibition tomorrow!!
Wish i could join you, from what I saw of it in the TV programme it is fabulous.
Posted 23 Feb 2014
stolenfaces
Photographer
stolenfaces
OldMaster
But I also object to this..."and not have to worry about another persons needs such as needing pictures"..not a good starting point for a good working relationship I would suggest? I understand of course if you are paying the model there is "no requirement" to provide pictures but look at it other ways...1) If they use your pics with a credit it is better publicity for you. 2) It increases the chance of continuing a working relationship on good terms and probably with more flexibility on rates next time. Unless you believe you are going to get the best pictures of your model on your first shoot then it goes without saying building a longer term relationship is beneficial. 3) There is just something so selfish about the wording in this.."and not have to worry about another person's needs" kind of says it all! I will continue to supply fully edited images to my models from the whole shoot regardless of whether it is TF or paid. It is a collaboration and it takes two to create pictures. OK, the photographer pays but equally has all the rights to do with the pictures as they please whereas the model at best is limited to using them only for personal promotion.
This seems to be a bizarre rant. He didn't say he wouldn't share photos with model, merely that paying a model cash leaves you with no residual obligations. I am not interested in shooting stuff that the model needs, nor in being committed to doing anything with the shots in any particular timescale. That does not mean that I would not give the model pics (eventually) nor does it mean that I am not happy to include the models suggestions where they fit within my overall brief.
Posted 23 Feb 2014
ChrisD
Photographer
ChrisD
MaoZhu

"Why shouldn't I pay the model!" The words of one of the greatest photographers of our age David Bailey, when questioned about people that pose for his photographs, including ordinary people in ordinary places at his latest exhibition. If Bailey feels that it is right to pay anyone that he asks to photograph why is it some models are pushed and pushed by photographers to do so many TF's. In my opinion Bailey has the right attitude, when you ask someone to pose in front your camera you are employing them so payment should be the norm. OK, if you are asked to photograph somebody then you do not pay, or should be paid. Perhaps there would be a lot more willing and happy photographers and models if we all learnt a lesson from Bailey.


From your profile notes " I am interested in TFCD or TFP to improve my portfolio "
Posted 23 Feb 2014
ChrisD

From your profile notes " I am interested in TFCD or TFP to improve my portfolio "


They didn't say "models shouldn't do TFP" they said "why is it some models are pushed and pushed by photographers to do so many TF's".

I agree that payment should be the norm, when you hire someone the expectation should be payment in money unless something else is negotiated. Instead it's topsy turvy, photographers (and models too I presume) seem to think that when they try to hire you it should be presumed they aren't offering pay unless they say so. In my mind if you contact someone about hiring them and you don't plan to pay them in money (the thing made exactly for that purpose in our society) that's quite a notable thing that shouldn't be taken for granted. 
Posted 23 Feb 2014
To reply to this thread you must be a member. Click here to join