Feedback system - "not recommended"

Feedback system - "not recommended"

22 posts
23 Dec 2013
Claypaws
Photographer
Claypaws
The feedback system has a couple of categories which are, IMO, rather dangerous and open to abuse. They are the "turned up but not recommended" and the "possibly recommended".

The danger, as I see it, is that this feedback option prevents the addition of a comment and so gives no idea of what was behind the rating and no chance for readers to evaluate the feedback in the context of other entries. It is also very much open to abuse. A photographer who asked a model to go beyond her levels and was rightly refused, for example, might give her a "turned up but not recommended" blue face. Or a model who turned up badly prepared and is sent home might give the photographer a "turned up but not recommended". In both those cases, the "guilty party", as it were, is the person giving the blue face, not the recipient of it.

In some situations, the rating might be completely fair but, in the absence of a comment field, we can never know.
For the system to be fair, it seems to me to be essential to require a comment, not to prevent a comment. As things stand, a member can give a blue face without stating a reason (because the system prevents comment) and be completely immune to any comeback since retalliation is also forbidden.

I have asked PS moderators about this but I would be interested to know other members' views.

BTW, I have neither given nor received such feedback!

Posted 24 Dec 2013
Edited by Claypaws 23 Dec 2013
Socialdisaster
Photographer
Socialdisast..
I've never understood the "possibly recommended" but if I see the other one, I contact the person who left to see whats what.

Posted 24 Dec 2013
Gerry99111
Photographer
Gerry99111
I think you will find the site wants to avoid getting drawn into potentially litigious disputes.

They are relying a little on people sorting their own crap out and I have heard of cases where someone does strike first to cover up their own fault and that has gone to be moderated and the reference removed.

If it was my site, I would probably do the same as I wouldn't want to risk a defamation case which is always possible when one person makes a negative comment that spells out something quite damaging about the other persons character

Posted 24 Dec 2013
magpie1
Photographer
magpie1
Gerry99111
[I think you will find the site wants to avoid getting drawn into potentially litigious disputes. They are relying a little on people sorting their own crap out and I have heard of cases where someone does strike first to cover up their own fault and that has gone to be moderated and the reference removed. If it was my site, I would probably do the same as I wouldn't want to risk a defamation case which is always possible when one person makes a negative comment that spells out something quite damaging about the other persons character]
Agree, and the reason/s for non recommendation could be quite varied, from dubious or offensive behaviour, from either party or just a TF shoot where the model didn't think much of the pics. There are mechanisms, as said ,for appeal and moderation, regarding feedback comments but if the matter meant legal issues were involved, then allowing comments beyond 'not recommend ' could be considered as prejudicial.
Posted 24 Dec 2013
I rarely take in or value any written text on any references - Even if the photographer has glowing references, I will still ask some of those models what he/she was like to work with. If you haven't left negative/haven't been given a negative then why does it matter? Follow most others leads and contact some of the previous people that person has worked with if you want a better idea of what they were like to work with.

Posted 24 Dec 2013
HowardJ
Photographer
HowardJ
If there was a comment box you'd just end up with people writing nasty comments about each other. Its best as it is. If you want to know why a "turned up but is not recommended" was left then contact the parties involved for a private explanation.

I've only ever left one piece of negative feedback and that was due to the model's attitude (this is how I pose and if you don't like it tough and how she couldn't do basic maths and decided to make my 6 hr shoot a 4 hr one for the same fee so she could fit in a shoot with another photographer. I chose to abandon the shoot and leave as she told me I could if I didn't like it).

Posted 24 Dec 2013
Claypaws
Photographer
Claypaws
HowardJ
I've only ever left one piece of negative feedback and that was due to the model's attitude (this is how I pose and if you don't like it tough and how she couldn't do basic maths and decided to make my 6 hr shoot a 4 hr one for the same fee so she could fit in a shoot with another photographer. I chose to abandon the shoot and leave as she told me I could if I didn't like it).
So how would you have felt if she had left you negative feedback first, thereby preventing you from leaving negative feedback for her?
Posted 24 Dec 2013
twentytwenty
Photographer
twentytwenty
I wouldn't take a blind bit of notice of the Feedback system. its so damn false, the idea is a good one, but unless people leave proper fact based feedback its never going to work. false sense of security.

Chrisse Red's comment is of far more value

Posted 24 Dec 2013
Claypaws
Photographer
Claypaws
twentytwenty
I wouldn't take a blind bit of notice of the Feedback system. its so damn false
Really? You wouldn't care if someone left you unfounded negative feedback?
Posted 24 Dec 2013
Claypaws
Photographer
Claypaws
Chrissie_Red
I rarely take in or value any written text on any references - Even if the photographer has glowing references, I will still ask some of those models what he/she was like to work with. If you haven't left negative/haven't been given a negative then why does it matter? Follow most others leads and contact some of the previous people that person has worked with if you want a better idea of what they were like to work with.
Why then do you write positive feedback for anyone as one assumes you would recommend readers to disregard your feedback as you disregard that of others? The reason I think the issue matters is that anyone can become a victim of what I see as a danger in the system. Though I have not been involved in either side of this issue I flag it for the same reason as I might report an accident hazard on the road. One day any of us might be the one to come a cropper on it.
Posted 24 Dec 2013
DaseinPhoto
Photographer
DaseinPhoto
There are inherent faults in any feedback system both on the positive and negative side. For example would you weight feedback from me the same as a long time professional? I've had shoots that have not gone as well as I'd hoped because we've just not connected, I wouldn't leave a negative as it could be just as much my fault as the model's. If I leave a glowing reference there's no way of judging if my expectations are lower than a pro (btw I don't think they are particularly and I stand by everything positive I've ever said about the fantastic people I've worked with on here)

On balance I would come down on the side of those that think that the dangers of comments on negative feedback outweigh the advantages. I think the key to it is that they are effectively and efficiently moderated so that false negatives can be removed. Let's focus on the positives about each other and exercise some caution and due diligence in the case of a negative.

Posted 24 Dec 2013
Claypaws

Why then do you write positive feedback for anyone as one assumes you would recommend readers to disregard your feedback as you disregard that of others? The reason I think the issue matters is that anyone can become a victim of what I see as a danger in the system. Though I have not been involved in either side of this issue I flag it for the same reason as I might report an accident hazard on the road. One day any of us might be the one to come a cropper on it.


If photographers didn't misbehave and models always turned up on time and did the job they were paid to do then there wouldn't be a need for feedback but until that happens then we need to put up with what we have. I'm sure purestorm used to have the comment section available for both positive and negative references (although I may be wrong) so I'm guessing they decided to stop using it for a decent reason.

I see your point but I look at it this way - 

Whats the worst a model has been accused of doing - not showing up to a shoot/ not bringing a pair of nylons/ not turning up on time..

Where as the experiences from models about photographers make me want to fu%^king cry sometimes, models put up with a shit load of shit and if decent reference checks are done it minimises the liklihood one of them will end up being raped. I say the seeking references in private does a crap load more than this or any other site does to help protect models.




Posted 24 Dec 2013
HowardJ
Photographer
HowardJ
Claypaws
So how would you have felt if she had left you negative feedback first, thereby preventing you from leaving negative feedback for her?
I would of complained to PS and had it removed. People have privately contacted me since about it and I have explained the situation to them including when she said "if you don't like the way I pose you can leave" which is exactly what I did after getting her to sign the release form, pose for ID pics and then I paid her for the time we had shot. She slammed the door behind me like a spoilt child, which is why I left the feedback as I could not recommend her based on her behaviour or her ability to take simple direction like avoid poses which create pointy sticking out elbows to which her response this is how I pose and other people are ok with it.
Posted 24 Dec 2013
Chosin
Model
Chosin
An explanation of the feedback system and how it works is given here:-
G14 ~§~ The Feedback System ~§~
Posted 24 Dec 2013
Claypaws
Photographer
Claypaws
Chrissie_Red
and if decent reference checks are done it minimises the liklihood one of them will end up being raped. I say the seeking references in private does a crap load more than this or any other site does to help protect models.
I agree with that. I too am appalled by the experiences some models have described to me. Thank you, and indeed everyone who has commented, for constructive and courteous discussion. I was aware of the site's notes on how the feedback system works but wanted to see if my view was generally shared. At least amongst those who have commented, it seems that the consensus is with the status quo, despite the burden it places on moderators to investigate individual cases.
Posted 24 Dec 2013
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