Nelson Mandela

Nelson Mandela

35 posts
5 Dec 2013
w4pictures
Photographer
w4pictures
Like many, I don't have much time for politicians. But I do feel moved by the passing of Nelson Mandela because he appeared to be, that rarity, a genuine statesman. Those qualities of compassion, forgiveness and generosity understandably guaranteed him a place on the world's stage. Especially in troubled South Africa, but also in the wider world, long may his legacy last.

Posted 6 Dec 2013
carshaltonkev
Photographer
carshaltonkev
Well said. I totally agree.

Posted 6 Dec 2013
Chosin
Model
Chosin
Legend and truly inspirational.....R.I.P

Posted 6 Dec 2013
click_gotcha
Photographer
click_gotcha
A truly great man, the world is a poorer place this morning. RIP.

Posted 6 Dec 2013
silverk
Photographer
silverk
Whilst in his later life he did achieve something special, lets not forget he was the Commander of the ANC military wing. He may not have pulled the trigger or planted the bomb directly but he was still responsible for deaths of innocents prior to his jail term!

Are we more forgiving because his crimes were done before a lot of us were born or because a few pop stars and celebrities said he was brill? I am not questioning that he was influential in the direction that SA took but lets be a little more realistic over just how saintly this person was, stop glossing over his crimes and let the hypocrasy end!

Posted 6 Dec 2013
Edited by silverk 6 Dec 2013
click_gotcha
Photographer
click_gotcha
silverk

Whilst in his later life he did achieve something special, lets not forget he was the Commander of the ANC military wing. He may not have pulled the trigger or planted the bomb directly but he was still responsible for deaths of innocents prior to his jail term! Are we more forgiving because his crimes were done before a lot of us were born or because a few pop stars and celebrities said he was brill? I am not questioning that he was influential in the direction that SA took but lets be a little more realistic over just how saintly this person was, stop glossing over his crimes and let the hypocrasy end!


To understand what went on at the time you have to understand how opressed the people were.  Blacks in SA had no vote, but it didn't end there.  when they organised to protest they were banned from forming political organistaions.  When they protested peacefully they were slaughtered.  The ANC tried every peaceful means they could to challenge apartheid and every time were met with new legislation banning whatever it was they were trying and more slaughter.  In the end they had no alternative but to meet violence with violence.  Nelson Mandela then spent 27 years in jail and when he was finally freed he came out and met his enemies as friends when it would ahve been all too easy to stir up retribution.    He took a nation on the brink and united it at a time when most thought it would end in civil war.  

Posted 6 Dec 2013
stolenfaces
Photographer
stolenfaces
silverk
Whilst in his later life he did achieve something special, lets not forget he was the Commander of the ANC military wing. He may not have pulled the trigger or planted the bomb directly but he was still responsible for deaths of innocents prior to his jail term! Are we more forgiving because his crimes were done before a lot of us were born or because a few pop stars and celebrities said he was brill? I am not questioning that he was influential in the direction that SA took but lets be a little more realistic over just how saintly this person was, stop glossing over his crimes and let the hypocrasy end!
So tell us: were his crimes better or worse than the annihilation of Dresden or Hiroshima?
Posted 6 Dec 2013
Edited by stolenfaces 6 Dec 2013
silverk
Photographer
silverk
stolenfaces
So tell us: were his crimes better or worse than the annihilation of Dresden or Hiroshima?
What either of those events have to do with my initial statement is beyond me, had you read my post thoroughly you would have seen that I acknowledged his contribution to modern day SA but was expressing MY opinion that news reporting was glossing over some of his past ergo making him saintlier than he actually was!
Posted 6 Dec 2013
frankpht
Photographer
frankpht
silverk

What either of those events have to do with my initial statement is beyond me, had you read my post thoroughly you would have seen that I acknowledged his contribution to modern day SA but was expressing MY opinion that news reporting was glossing over some of his past ergo making him saintlier than he actually was! [/





We've lost a great man yet we still have the likes of you.  There's simply no justice.  Just ask yourself if Hitler had managed to invade this country.  Would you then regard the freedom fighters that would have followed as murderers.  Would you describe the French resistance as muderers.   Would you desribe de Valera as a muderer.   If you can say the whites in South Africa  had the right to be in power and surpress the indigenous people.  Then you have a case alas it is clear to me you have not.   No one doubts Mandela the freedom fighter without understanding what little choice he and every South African had to fight against the injustice of white rule.  Peaceful protest was never an option.   A giant has died but little people like you well Mandela would forgive you.  I just wished you used your head.
Posted 6 Dec 2013
Edited by frankpht 6 Dec 2013
Kiboko
Photographer
Kiboko
I watched an Arnie Schwarzenegger film the other night called Collateral Damage. The film started with Arnie's wife and child waiting for him outside a restaurant, when a terrorist bomb exploded, killing them both. The perpetrator was a Colombian attempting to persuade the Americans to leave his country. I don't believe that certain types of violence, eg. terrorist bombings which kill indiscriminately, are justified in any circumstances, because innocent people including women and children also become victims. I have a vague recollection of my parents discussing bombs going off in S. Africa on the News all those years ago, - can anyone tell me whether the ANC resorted to this type of action or was it solely agitation, demonstration, and/or political assassinations? And whether or not N.M. was responsible or personally involved?

Posted 6 Dec 2013
silverk
Photographer
silverk
frankpht
silverk What either of those events have to do with my initial statement is beyond me, had you read my post thoroughly you would have seen that I acknowledged his contribution to modern day SA but was expressing MY opinion that news reporting was glossing over some of his past ergo making him saintlier than he actually was! [/ We've lost a great man yet we still have the likes of you.  There's simply no justice.  Just ask yourself if Hitler had managed to invade this country.  Would you then regard the freedom fighters that would have followed as murderers.  Would you describe the French resistance as muderers.   Would you desribe de Valera as a muderer.   If you can say the whites in South Africa  had the right to be in power and surpress the indigenous people.  Then you have a case alas it is clear to me you have not.   No one doubts Mandela the freedom fighter without understanding what little choice he and every South African had to fight against the injustice of white rule.  Peaceful protest was never an option.   A giant has died but little people like you well Mandela would forgive you.  I just wished you used your head.
Thank you for your comments, I do not need anyone to forgive me. To use a different example when Martin McGuiness and Gerry Adams die will you be celebrating there brilliance, in their eyes the actions they have taken were justified. Is that not what you are suggesting. Do we just turn a blind eye because it suits us? Twice now I have reiterated that I have nothing against Mandela or what he achieved after his release, its the hypocrisy by the reporters that Im bothered with. If not being filled with an overwhelming sense of loss and gushiness makes me a little person, if looking at the whole story and not selected parts because that makes for a better fairytale, makes me a little person then I am proud to be that little person. That head that you say I wasn't using is the same head that enables me to free think, to make my own mind up and not be bowed by popular opinion. Ironically one of the skills admired in the late Mandela.
Posted 6 Dec 2013
tonycsm
Photographer
tonycsm
Kiboko

, - can anyone tell me whether the ANC resorted to this type of action or was it solely agitation, demonstration, and/or political assassinations? And whether or not N.M. was responsible or personally involved?


Here's a few facts....
Around double the amount of politically motovated murders allegedly committed by the whites on blacks, are attributable to black on black violence during those times since 1948 to 1994 ( 21,000 total deaths) 14,000 of these total killings between 1990 and 1994.

Check out the 'necklace' executions carried out by ANC supporters...in the words of Winnie Mandela ..." With our boxes of matches and our necklaces, we shall liberate this country!"

Posted 6 Dec 2013
Edited by tonycsm 6 Dec 2013
frankpht
Photographer
frankpht
silverk

Thank you for your comments, I do not need anyone to forgive me. To use a different example when Martin McGuiness and Gerry Adams die will you be celebrating there brilliance, in their eyes the actions they have taken were justified. Is that not what you are suggesting. Do we just turn a blind eye because it suits us? Twice now I have reiterated that I have nothing against Mandela or what he achieved after his release, its the hypocrisy by the reporters that Im bothered with. If not being filled with an overwhelming sense of loss and gushiness makes me a little person, if looking at the whole story and not selected parts because that makes for a better fairytale, makes me a little person then I am proud to be that little person. That head that you say I wasn't using is the same head that enables me to free think, to make my own mind up and not be bowed by popular opinion. Ironically one of the skills admired in the late Mandela.




You say you're looking at the whole story.  Are you really then by your stance on Mandela's history.  Why not say the same thing about Churchill a man who fought for freedom.  This man did he have the right to declare war on Germany.   What did Hitler's european expansion have to do with Britain.  America didn't want to know yet Churchill thought no this herr Hitler is wrong and needs to be stopped.  Thus sending thousands of soliders to a certain death in the cause of liberty and freedom.   By what route do you think Mandela should have taken in order to secure the rightful owners of SA.   Their own country and freedom.   

Northern Ireland are you going to tell me the catholics in their own country occupied by Britain were not suffering great injustices.  I am Southern Irish and never a supporter of the violence.   I do believe in a united Ireland if only because Britain invaded the country.  Southern Ireland fought and won their freedom at the cost of Northern Ireland.  Armed struggle was the only way that freedom was won.  Thus people once regarded as terrorists begame the political leaders.  I am happy to say that most Irish people have no ill feelings against the British.  History is a cruel beast and Northern Ireland a sad victim.   Now we have McGuiness and Adams as political leaders and NI is thankfully and I hope forever it remains so a peaceful place.  Will I be dancing and celebrating them after they are gone no.  
In no way what so ever.  I will understand  their reasons for their cause as I will understand any oppressed peoples actions in a fight for freedom.   In Northern Ireland today people that have lost so greatly on all sides.  Have found a peace through reconciliation fragile as it is.  I hope it lasts no matter what flag is flying. 

You I would very much doubt be admired by Mandela for your ability to think.  Freedom comes at great cost and freedom should never be denied.   It would seem you would be happy to deny all oppressed people theirs. 


Posted 6 Dec 2013
stolenfaces
Photographer
stolenfaces
tonycsm
Here's a few facts.... Around double the amount of politically motovated murders allegedly committed by the whites on blacks, are attributable to black on black violence during those times since 1948 to 1994 ( 21,000 total deaths) 14,000 of these total killings between 1990 and 1994. Check out the 'necklace' executions carried out by ANC supporters...in the words of Winnie Mandela ..." With our boxes of matches and our necklaces, we shall liberate this country!"
Ah well, Thatcher and Reagan must have been right to support the apartheid regime then (because the ANC was supported by USSR). Do you expect anyone to believe your figures when you can't be bothered to quote the source for your numbers or any definitions. I'm sure Mr Free Thinker wouldn't dream of believing them or drawing any conclusions based on such sloppy science. What's your definition of 'politically motovated [sic] murders', does it include those killed by the police or by the state with the gallows ? And in the context of the apartheid regime your definition of 'Black' would be quite relevant.
Posted 6 Dec 2013
Edited by stolenfaces 6 Dec 2013
silverk
Photographer
silverk
frankpht
You say you're looking at the whole story.  Are you really then by your stance on Mandela's history.   You I would very much doubt be admired by Mandela for your ability to think.  Freedom comes at great cost and freedom should never be denied.   It would seem you would be happy to deny all oppressed people theirs. 
Point 1: Mandela is on record admitting that the only way to achieve the goal was by non peaceful means, also that he was the Commander of the ANC military wing so not sure how my "stance on Mandela's history" has been abbreviated or selective. Point 2: I never said I support oppressed people being denied their freedom, in fact I never even mentioned oppressed people so not sure why my having a mind of my own is being called into question! Additionally I served 17 years in the forces during the Falklands and 1st Gulf war ensuring peoples freedoms. FOR THE THIRD TIME, I HAVE ALREADY PAID HOMAGE TO MANDELA AND RECOGNISE HIS CONTRIBUTION TO MODERN SA! My comments were based on the hypocrisy of the reporting. The saying "everyone loves you when you're dead" has never been more apt if we just gloss over his actions. By all means praise him for his achievements, I take nothing away from HIM but he also had a dark side which is being ignored during his glorification.
Posted 6 Dec 2013
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