Why do photographers pay expenses?

Why do photographers pay expenses?

52 posts
14 Oct 2013
blancho
Photographer
blancho
Why are photographers expected to pay expenses on a time for shoot. Travel, locations, Mua etc?

Traditionally photographers pay expenses as they often act as the art director arranging everything or they are the person who takes the end payment from the client so therefore pay for everything. However on a time for shoot where the images are not being sold the shoot should be considered equal therefore expenses split.

If one person is half doing the other a favour then maybe they should pay more, ie. an amateur working with a professional. However I often find amateurs with no experience often ask me the professional to pay expenses.

I also find people often misunderstand time for. It's dead simple in my mind if both people are getting something out of the shoot that makes it worth while and both people pay.

Posted 14 Oct 2013


There are a few different way of looking at this..


I have paid for studio costs (as a model) in the past - and a makeup artist - so it's not always "PHOTOGRAPHER PAYS EVERYTHING" - the majority of photographers are older and do have decent enough jobs (I don't know many models straight out of college who can invest hundreds/thousands into a hobby).

I have never asked for travel expenses EVER. If I'm working local then most of my shoots are full day or at least half day so I just pay my own way.

There is another way of looking at it here - Photographer is in charge of the shoot, he has full control over pretty much every aspect of it - he can edit as many/ as little as he likes (or if he is a complete douche he can just piss off and never send the model anything at all).. He can use those images in his portfolio for years whereas a models image doesn't last "forever" and quickly goes out of date.

If somebody asks for expenses and you don't want to pay them then don't work with them.. Its pretty simple, the times I helped out with studio costs and funded my own trips around England I seen the money I was investing as being "worth" it for the resulting images, if paying my own way makes a great photographers decision as easy as possible then great.



Posted 14 Oct 2013
mph
Photographer
mph
They are not expected to.

Sometimes they are demanded - you can accept or refuse
Sometimes they are requested - you can accept or refuse

Sometimes photographers like myself will offer to pay them (within reason) as we want to shoot a model and think it may make it more likely he/she will accept the shoot and we accept that many models have less money than many photographers.

YMMV

Posted 14 Oct 2013
RedChecker
Photographer
RedChecker
Since more often than not we (photographers) get the better end of the deal in retaining copyright and the photos can be tailored more ot what we want then I think it's only fair that we cough up some money toward the shoot, don't you think?

Posted 14 Oct 2013
magpie1
Photographer
magpie1
RedChecker
Since more often than not we (photographers) get the better end of the deal in retaining copyright and the photos can be tailored more ot what we want then I think it's only fair that we cough up some money toward the shoot, don't you think?
Agreed and if the photographer is working from home we might be able to have a lie in and bacon sarnie while the model is crawling through traffic or sitting on a bus. It's also possible to negotiate on paying travel expenses but with most things in life if people feel they are getting valued they work better and work even better if they feel someone is being generous towards them.
Posted 14 Oct 2013
ossies
Photographer
ossies
A lot of Models starting out are usually not working or in a poorly paid job { not all ] Most Togs have the funds to buy expensive equipment
and if they are professional and earning a living from it then they can off set Models fees through there tax accounts costing them nothing .
Just put in your casting that you Don't pay expenses , Its simple ..

Why do Togs whinge about a few pounds towards a models expenses when the model as probably been getting prepared and traveling maybe
4 hours before a shoot then maybe shooting for 4 hours and then traveling home Making it a possible 10 hr day . A model needs clothes make up etc ..

I some times wonder how any shoots ever take place as a lot of togs on here seem to detest models and some models detest togs , Being relatively
new on here it all seems very argumentative and childish .

If I shoot a model TF I always give them about £20 after shoot just as a thank you and appreciation of there efforts and with new amateur Models it gives
them a confidence boost to think they have been paid for a shoot .

Posted 14 Oct 2013
Edited by ossies 14 Oct 2013
MG
Photographer
MG
Just look at a tf shoot as though they are old fashioned scales... the better you are, the more the model wants to shoot with. if you're David Bailey they'd pay you loads. If you're Guy Williams Camera club then you'll have to pay her loads... anything in the middle is up for negotiation. There is no right or wrong way. If they adore youre work tgen Bobs your uncle
Posted 15 Oct 2013
stolenfaces
Photographer
stolenfaces
blancho
I also find people often misunderstand time for. It's dead simple in my mind if both people are getting something out of the shoot that makes it worth while and both people pay.
It's not simple. The model takes much greater risk as she only gets what you deign to give her. If she is paying for travelling she is risking money on your competence, diligence and honesty. What are you risking ? As everyone has said you don't have to pay expenses, but if you value the model so little why would you deign to shoot her at all, especially with you being a professional ? And of course you could travel to the model to avoid her having expenses - or only work with models within walking distance.
Posted 15 Oct 2013

"Why do photographers pay expenses?"




Because the photographer thinks the model is worth it, if you dont think a model's worth the expense dont shoot with them, they can't force you to pay anything
Posted 15 Oct 2013
Gerry99111
Photographer
Gerry99111
You could travel to them and then avoid paying them expenses and incur the expenses and travelling time yourself?

It may be the only way it is feasible to shoot TF for a model who may be flat broke because they cannot get an income. They may choose to work with someone on a TF basis provided it doesn't cost them anything to do the shoot.

Like anything, in this it is up to both sides to discuss a potential working relationship and move on if both sides cannot agree

Posted 15 Oct 2013
Sarge
Photographer
Sarge
I think the question has been answered.
I have never paid travel expenses directly, but I have mainly picked models up and dropped them back off again, or met them halfway.
Someone has to travel, if its you then you pay for fuel etc, if its the model then she will have to pay, so its polite (and possibly necessary) to help with expenses to get the model you want.
As already said, many model don't have a disposable income to pay for this. Some have rail cards, so I will pick up from the train station (and drop them back off again). Most (not all obviously) photographers are middle aged and have a disposable part of their income (some more than others).

Another question, if the model was male would you still help with travel expenses?

Posted 15 Oct 2013
I haven't been on the forums on PS for what feels like a lifetime now, but it's good to see that we're still recycling all of the same old topics!

I already agree with a fair amount that has been said.. If a model is not shooting locally or on tour (with many shoots booked in) in an area, then i believe that travel expenses are pretty standard if the shoot is paid. As an example, if i am in discussion with 2 different photographers about a paid shoot, and then (sods law) they both end up wanting to work on the same day, then who am i more likely to work with?

Photographer A) 5hr shoot 3hrs away (each way), no expenses offered

Photographer B) 5hr shoot 3hrs away (each way), expenses covered (receipt(s) provided)

My partner used to travel for his work, and he had his mileage covered, and i believe that to be the case for many professions. However, if someone is being completely unreasonable with their expectations, then you simply do not work with them... Another way that many models do it is to simply, 'up' their rates a little depending on where they're travelling to, so it is more of a, 'hidden cost'... But for me personally, i would rather be upfront and show a break down of costs as i believe this to be fair and honest. If i was wanting to hire someone but needed to keep costs down, then i would look for someone local, however, if there wasn't anyone local but there was the ideal person a few hours away, then i would expect to pay towards their travel to get to me for the work, as it is also partly supply and demand.

Essentially, as long as all expenses are agreed by both parties beforehand, and as long as a receipt - of sorts - can be provided if requested, then i really can't see what the issue is? Many freelancers in all walks of life ask for expenses, don't most wedding photographers expect money towards travel if they're coming a fair distance to you? Or do they not just charge more in the overall cost when doing so? It works both ways...







Posted 15 Oct 2013
Sarge

Another question, if the model was male would you still help with travel expenses?


Why on earth would that make a difference? Are you suggesting that travel expenses are more of a, 'chivalrous act' as opposed to what 2 professional parties have agreed to beforehand?!

If i am travelling a fair distance then i ask for a contribution towards my travel - and the exact same would still apply if i had a penis.




Posted 15 Oct 2013
Sarge
Photographer
Sarge
Ellamae10
Why on earth would that make a difference? Are you suggesting that travel expenses are more of a, 'chivalrous act' as opposed to what 2 professional parties have agreed to beforehand?! If i am travelling a fair distance then i ask for a contribution towards my travel - and the exact same would still apply if i had a penis.
It shouldn't make ANY difference what so ever, but I bet it does to some. In fact some wont even shoot male models let alone pay them or even pay for just their expenses. You don't have a penis, but I could put money on it that if you did you would get less work to choose from (paid or TF) on PureStorm (especially if you were a hobby model).
Posted 15 Oct 2013
Edited by Sarge 15 Oct 2013
Gerry99111
Photographer
Gerry99111
Sarge

It shouldn't make ANY difference what so ever, but I bet it does to some. ).


Of course it should make a difference - why are pretty size 8 models more in demand than pretty size 14 models - we are all equal and everyone deserves a chance? Well actually no, its supply and demand and those that can supply what the customers want will get bookings and those that cannot will not or have to charge less or even pay.
Also for many, time is as important as cost so why spend your time shooting someone of little value to you when you can shoot someone who can help you create images you enjoy?
On PS there are negligable serious male models and I actually suspect there are more photographers looking to shoot male models than can here so they probably source some of them from elsewhere

Posted 15 Oct 2013
Edited by Gerry99111 15 Oct 2013
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