demands for payment

demands for payment

32 posts
30 Sep 2013
SDuell
Photographer
SDuell
this topic is for models and photographers alike

so ive been contact by a model who saw a advert I posted recently which clearly said TFP

we have exchanged a few messages and now she is asking if I will pay her for her time !!!!!

she is very very new to modelling - she has no experience and has only done one photo-shoot

ive said to her - I don't pay for models who dont model as a career plus my post for a model clearly said TFP also you have no experience with modelling and have no references

so my question is - did I do the right thing telling her she isn't a mainstream model therefore I wont pay her?

would you do the same with a model who has the same experience?

models - would you expect a photographer to pay you for your time when you have no experience ?

Moderator Advice

SDuell

we have exchanged a few messages and now she is asking if I will pay her for her time !!!!!

If you have booked a member on a TF basis (through PM or Shoot Diary) and they are now
demanding payment let us know - but if merely 'in discussion' there are no grounds for a Report.

Posted 30 Sep 2013
Edited by WebModerator 30 Sep 2013
Sarge
Photographer
Sarge
The fact of the matter is you asked for TFP.
She had the option to accept that or walk away.
You cant blame her for trying, but she cant blame you for declining.

Her being experienced or not has little to do with the original casting.
If she had loads of experience would you have then accepted her request and paid her (despite it being a TF casting)?

Posted 30 Sep 2013
SDuell
Photographer
SDuell
na I wouldn't of payied her regardless of her experience as my post did say TFP

I just think a model with no experience cant really ask for payment I think its over reaching as she hasn't any experience or references for me to see if she warrents payment

Posted 30 Sep 2013
Spike
Photographer
Spike
It happens quite often, lots of threads about if. If a model causes you problems before a shoot, politely decline & move on.

The vast majority of models are professional in their behavior, give your work to them.

Posted 30 Sep 2013
stolenfaces
Photographer
stolenfaces
SDuell
this topic is for models and photographers alike so ive been contact by a model who saw a advert I posted recently which clearly said TFP we have exchanged a few messages and now she is asking if I will pay her for her time !!!!! she is very very new to modelling - she has no experience and has only done one photo-shoot ive said to her - I don't pay for models who dont model as a career plus my post for a model clearly said TFP also you have no experience with modelling and have no references so my question is - did I do the right thing telling her she isn't a mainstream model therefore I wont pay her? would you do the same with a model who has the same experience? models - would you expect a photographer to pay you for your time when you have no experience ?
Whether you work with any model is up to you ( if they are prepared to work with you). This is an extraordinarily stupid post. Models are paid for their looks ( and to some extent, for experience). If you don't want to pay models you need to have a strong offering both in your photos and communication. Your post suggests your communications are going to let you down. The fact that you posted a non-paid casting is a complete irrelevance to the your question. Why are you so upset. If you're not bothered about shooting the girl then surely you would just have moved on. If you're keen enough to moan about her on here it suggests that you did want to shoot her. So it appears that you think she's worth shooting but you don't want to pay her. Obviously a rude reply about her lack of experience may well be remembered, so when she is experienced she will refuse to work with you ....
Posted 30 Sep 2013
I have to be honest I was offered paid work straight away ( as well as alot of TF ) but I was lucky enough and possibly pleasant enough on the shoots that photographers gave me some pictures for my portfolio as well as paying me
So I obviously never took on any TF work and never have!

I wouldn't pay based on the fact you specified specifically TF but I also dont see why new girls if they have great potential can't get paid straight away as long as they prove themselves on the shoots and get good results
I think a nice system would be to offer TF if they are new but if they are a great model, work hard and get you good results offer them some payment on the shoot?
That way everyone wins - they get to go home happy feeling good after working hard and you got some good photos
If they aren't brilliant and don't really have a lot of potential it doesnt cost anything but you both get the experience and photos

Just a thought...

Posted 30 Sep 2013
pmeu
Photographer
pmeu
BlueSapphire
I have to be honest I was offered paid work straight away ( as well as alot of TF ) but I was lucky enough and possibly pleasant enough on the shoots that photographers gave me some pictures for my portfolio as well as paying me So I obviously never took on any TF work and never have!
To me the pricing of time for novice models is a question of risk-sharing between the two parties. If one side wants to load all the risk on the other it generally won't work. If you are a fantastic photographer then models may be willing to work for TFP because they know they will get great results. Or if the model is obviously so beautiful then you as a 'tog know you'll be highly likely to get some good shots no matter what. In both cases there is no real risk so it works. But in most cases you won't be the world's best photographer or an obvious upcoming super-model then there needs to be some give and take a bit. With you Sarah IIRC your original (and indeed current) rates were low. As Stolenfaces points out there are many attributes which make photographers willing to pay for models and experience is only one of them, though I don't think you should undervalue experience! When I first saw your portfolio and your rates even though you had little experience I didn't think it was much of a gamble - you looked fantastic, even when starting off and I was pretty sure I would get good results even if you were nervous and/or an inexperienced poser. Your communication was superb too and that again filled me with confidence and more than happy to pay what you were asking. And as you know I was more than happy with my final results. There are a few novice models who are like that, auburn rose, Holly Boom and Emma Rachale, for me you could just tell these were going to be great models and were just starting off - I didn't have any problems paying them what their full rates were. But only a few brand new models are like that, and I wouldn't be willing to take the full risk on many. My approach is to offer what I think is a reasonable but at the lower end rate (plus travel) which I would hope is acceptable. On top of that, they can have any shots they like plus of course just doing studio time and practice posing (plus a purestorm recommendation) adds to their modeling 'capital' and reputation. To some extent the model pays for that latter part by being offered a reasonable but lower rate than if they were more experienced (say £25 p.h. rather than £35 p.h). Its up to the model if she finds that acceptable and I find it a reasonable way to risk share when using a new model. Looking back at the number of times I've implemented this policy I'm not sure how successful its been mind. There has been a high proportion of models who have backed out quite late on. Would they have backed out if I had offered higher pay? maybe not but I think they probably would have done - their excuses seem to be more about having cold feet rather than dissatisfaction with the pay level.
Posted 30 Sep 2013
markeewould
Photographer
markeewould
I'd agree....
Spike
It happens quite often, lots of threads about if. If a model causes you problems before a shoot, politely decline & move on. The vast majority of models are professional in their behavior, give your work to them.
Posted 30 Sep 2013
Amber6
Model
Amber6
I think she's probably 'testing' the waters. Since TFCD was the original agreement, I would stick to your guns and explain that. Anymore problems - find a new model.

Posted 30 Sep 2013
stolenfaces
Photographer
stolenfaces
Amber6
I think she's probably 'testing' the waters. Since TFCD was the original agreement, I would stick to your guns and explain that. Anymore problems - find a new model.
We can all speculate - it could equally be that the to-and-fro involved discussions about levels, travel expenses, the quality of the photographers work or other details. Asking for money as a result of these discussions is not a 'demand' it is part of the normal business process leading to arrangements for a shoot being agreed. If a photographer needs an experienced model to achieve decent results then it is somewhat cheeky to expect in-experienced models to 'waste' their time on TFP with them.
Posted 30 Sep 2013
Edited by stolenfaces 30 Sep 2013
PaulManuell
Photographer
PaulManuell
SDuell
I just think a model with no experience cant really ask for payment
I can't say I agree with that tbh. I think anyone - model, photographer, mua or whoever - can ASK for payment, even if they're total newbies in their field. Whether they actually find someone willing to pay them, though, is a different matter.
Posted 30 Sep 2013
PaulManuell
Photographer
PaulManuell
I remember emailing one model not long after joining this site to enquire about doing a shoot with her. She was even newer on here than me, but her reply to me was something along the lines of, 'Wot u gonna pay me?' Now I should point out that in my profile notes, I do state I'm willing to pay, so I replied to her, asking how much she was looking for. '£40 an hour,' was her reply. I also have to point out I don't shoot nude, topless or anything in that style, so here was a brand new, inexperienced model wanting more for a clothed shoot than I've read some very experienced models asking for unclothed. And money, rather than modelling, seemed to be this particular model's driving force. I replied saying that's too much for me, but wished her luck in her modelling. She never replied and hasn't logged onto the site for months. I guess modelling (for financial gain) didn't work out for her.

Posted 30 Sep 2013
Sarge
Photographer
Sarge
stolenfaces
We can all speculate - it could equally be that the to-and-fro involved discussions about levels, travel expenses, the quality of the photographers work or other details. Asking for money as a result of these discussions is not a 'demand' it is part of the normal business process leading to arrangements for a shoot being agreed. If a photographer needs an experienced model to achieve decent results then it is somewhat cheeky to expect in-experienced models to 'waste' their time on TFP with them.
That is a good point, and hopefully the casting stated the levels from the outset and the OP wasn't trying to push them during the communication process. The casting was for TF*, so not sure if asking for money is part of the business process as that is therefore not a TF shoot anymore. Of course this is unless the casting stated it would pay expenses, then a discussion has to go ahead so they know how much in expenses is to be paid. He has not stated he needed an experienced model, only that a newbie shouldn't ask for payment when applying to a TF casting (no one should ask really). This is not wasting the models time, as I said, they can view the casting and photographers portfolio to see if it will be of any benefit to them and either apply or move on. Of course anyone can ask for money, model, MUA or photographer regardless of experience, and good on them if they get a few quid too. The argument is, should someone be asking for money when arrangements are being made for a TF shoot? The answer (mine that is) is no they shouldn't as its against PS rules. But if they do and they get a few quid then good on them. Asking for expenses is more acceptable though.
Posted 30 Sep 2013
stolenfaces
Photographer
stolenfaces
Sarge
He has not stated he needed an experienced model, only that a newbie shouldn't ask for payment when applying to a TF casting (no one should ask really). This is not wasting the models time, as I said, they can view the casting and photographers portfolio to see if it will be of any benefit to them and either apply or move on. Of course anyone can ask for money, model, MUA or photographer regardless of experience, and good on them if they get a few quid too. The argument is, should someone be asking for money when arrangements are being made for a TF shoot? The answer (mine that is) is no they shouldn't as its against PS rules. But if they do and they get a few quid then good on them. Asking for expenses is more acceptable though.
The argument isn't about someone asking for payment from a TFP casting. That's no different to applying for any casting where you don't fit the requirements and is a waste of both party's time (but normally wastes more of a models time). But why go on about the model's inexperience if that was the issue ? Presumably an experienced model who replied and asked for payment would also have been given short shrift. The whole TFP casting thing is just a red herring. This post is about the OP asking if people agree that new models should never be paid. The 'never' is the important and stupid bit. Why would anyone ask that unless he wants to be told it's a load of rubbish. If he can't afford to pay models he wants to work with, he needs to accept that some will not work with him, whatever their level of experience. Whilst some models may have un-realistic expectations, giving them the benefit of contrary views gleaned from years of experience as an amateur photographer is unlikely to impress them (especially when the OP is so unsure that these views are reasonable that he posts in this forum to see whether anyone agrees with him)
Posted 30 Sep 2013
Edited by stolenfaces 30 Sep 2013
Gerry99111
Photographer
Gerry99111
stolenfaces

Whether you work with any model is up to you ( if they are prepared to work with you). This is an extraordinarily stupid post. Models are paid for their looks ( and to some extent, for experience). If you don't want to pay models you need to have a strong offering both in your photos and communication. Your post suggests your communications are going to let you down. The fact that you posted a non-paid casting is a complete irrelevance to the your question. Why are you so upset. If you're not bothered about shooting the girl then surely you would just have moved on. If you're keen enough to moan about her on here it suggests that you did want to shoot her. So it appears that you think she's worth shooting but you don't want to pay her. Obviously a rude reply about her lack of experience may well be remembered, so when she is experienced she will refuse to work with you ....


This pretty much sums it up.
We don't even know whether the model is new here or new to modelling - big difference.

Even if a model is a complete novice, they are still going to expect either cash or decent images to improve their portfolio unless they are completely shooting for fun and don't care about the images which is very unlikely.

The funny thing is if your images are worth TFP, you will get models approach you who are serious. If you get models approach you but try and turn a shoot into a paid shoot, the chances are your images are not worth TFP. You can decide to blame the models or you can decide to do something about it with your port. That will invariably mean paying. If you don't want to pay, the vicious circle will continue with blame being apportioned and no progress made.

You didn't need to be rude to the model about their experience, that will be remembered. All you needed to say was this was a TFP casting and put the ball back in their court



Posted 30 Sep 2013
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