i have been thinking...

i have been thinking...

18 posts
1 Oct 2009
cassiemakeup
Make Up Artist
cassiemakeup
i never come on here, i think i signed on once because claire asked me to join her in a discussion... anyway, i signed on randomly the other day and was reading the looking for work posts and things, and noticed that the rates people are asking for on here are so, so minimal. for instance a standard day rate up here in manchester is about 350, i have seen people offering themselves for 50 or so for the day.

i am not trying to defend anyone here, i am genuinely interested. it's got me wondering about these kind of websites vs. real world work, and what it is that drives people to bust their asses for so little pay on sites like these? my thoughts are it must be either... you/they don't know any better and aren't aware of real world rates/are comfortable doing these little jobs on these websites and don't really have any interest in the stress of the real world commercial jobs/you have no idea how to go about getting these proper jobs/you know exactly what you have to do to get these jobs but it seems like a long road and a lot of effort.

as i said i'm not out for an argument with anyone here, i'm genuinely interested. i'm sure there are a lot more reasons than the ones i posted? i want you to know that i have no prejudice against these web sites or the people on them, the small rates charged on sites like these affect me in no way whatsoever as it's not what i do... in fact i have passed on jobs to a lovely makeup artist on here that i couldn't do.

i hope people will actually reply to this...
Posted 1 Oct 2009
ClaireShipman
Make Up Artist
ClaireShipma..
Cassie, in my opinion you pay for a standard, if that's what they think there worth then well that's just really sad and I mean that. They cannot and will not be able to survive when only covering kit costs, I give them 6 month max. Personally I come on here for pure comedy value now. I have not worked my ass off and invested thousands to be in internet mua. I have in the past got some good jobs from here and met some lovely people who I will stay in contact with. My portfolio will continue to hover around but I will no longer be biting on these ridiculous slanging matches, tf jaffa cake forums and immature wannabees that surround here. I think your right about people not being aware of the real world and girls offering £50 for a whole day im glad they are not aware, at least here there talentless souls can be contained where they will always belong. Its called having no business sense only a select few will make it and it wont be from being a keyboard warrior.
Posted 1 Oct 2009
Iconic
Photographer
Iconic
not everyone can afford to pay 350 per day especialy if its a hobby, obviously people doing this professionally especialy togs that i have seen do pay a bit more than tht
Posted 1 Oct 2009
ClaireShipman
Make Up Artist
ClaireShipma..
Think you have the wrong end of the stick here. Cassie means catering to a different market the big commercial clients etc and its directed towards mainly cheapie mua's. I have been told on many occasion im not expensive enough but others will say im too expensive so sometimes you cant win. I understand how expensive photography is, we don't expect you to pay us that amount of money however some people make it seem as if we are worth nothing at times on these types of sites.
Posted 1 Oct 2009
TechnicalBoy
Photographer
TechnicalBoy
From the rates a lot of people are charging they can't be looking to run a business or make a living - photographers and MUAs have serious overheads in terms of equipment, supplies and training so if you're looking to be a professional you would have to charge a professional rate.

I think most of the work on here is at the enthusiastic amateur level, or people trying to build up their first portfolio. That being the case they are probably only looking to cover their costs, and keep at it in the hope that if they do enough shoots eventually they'll get some decent results.

Posted 1 Oct 2009
Victoria_Howard
Make Up Artist
Victoria_How..
I assumed the rates here were terrible as...
1.. It was peoples hobbies
2. People were still training and trying to gain experience and cover a few costs as they trained and built a portfolio? ...??

I also think there is a genuine problem with the number of short courses on offer at colleges and a lack of career advice. I think there a number of people whom do a short MUA course  (ie a month) then think that they will be able to start a career as a MUA. I think the colleges are partly responsible.




Posted 2 Oct 2009
Edited by Victoria_Howard 3 Oct 2009
LeanneMakeUp
Make Up Artist
LeanneMakeUp
Hi,
I thank your comment you left on my Facebook a while ago as it made me realize.
Everyone I work with tells me I charge too less but the problems I face are:
1. There's alot of make-up artists in my area who are working for less so I find they get the most work even though to me their quality of work is of very low standard and I've even heard of complaints of photographer's hiring someone working for less but getting not good results. So I tell them "If you want good results and quality you should pay for someone with experience!" But alas it seems their budget is low
2. I have worked and still work with a variety of photographers from amateur to professional and even the professional's seem to have an issue if I offer anything higher than £250 for a day... Saying that it's too expensive and they will hire someone else. Which irritates me because I know I can do the job.
3. I need to live/survive but I'm finding it hard at present due to everyone undercutting.

Since I got back from holiday I have upped my rates but I am very concerned I won't be getting the work... Because everyone I work with will simply go elsewhere for cheaper

I am not with any agencies but I doubt any would be interested in me.

I recently put on the forums £100 for 6 hours which was available for 1 week and it makes me feel rubbish because I know I should be charging more.

So you know what? No more of these special deals. If people want me they will have to pay me! I need to live too!

And I've also had professionals who are all "Oh but I'm so and so, you should work with me for free because I'll be good for your port..." Which is some cases can be true but then they think they will get you for free all the time.

But yes that is it now. I am not being walked over anymore.
Posted 5 Oct 2009
ClaireShipman
Make Up Artist
ClaireShipma..
I cant even begin to imagine the amount of undercutting that goes on with artists in London, I imagine its quite high!

That's why in some ways im glad to live in a smaller city where I can easily commute all over, I follow the money so I don't mind traveling if im being paid for it.

I do feel sometimes that not many artists stick together, instead they are fighting each other for jobs when ideally if they worked together the business as a whole would be a lot better organised.

 However, I don't have any artists in *my area* I can trust enough to pass jobs onto when im busy as much as I would love to pass the work on, I usually cant because:

A) Im afraid they wont turn up, after a reputation of being a let down
B) They have handed personal advertising material around my regular clients (So out of order)
C) I dont know anyone around me that can deliver a standard of work my clients require
D) Very few people take this as seriously as me and seem to see it as a hobby

I know a lot of artists who are committed like yourself Cassie but they are all miles away from me. I would love to get some sort of mua organisation together where we draw up contracts and pass each other work when we are not available but the contracts enforce that you are not to steal / network with the other artists clients or undercut their prices to get yourself more work so basically you are kinda working for the other artist but taking all the money not the credit.

I think we should all meet up and network for this purpose and the purpose of make up chat, food and wine

Sorry if im waffling on and not making any sense at all
Posted 6 Oct 2009
Edited by ClaireShipman 6 Oct 2009
DianeDakin
Make Up Artist
DianeDakin
However, I don't have any artists in *my area* I can trust enough to pass jobs onto when im busy as much as I would love to pass the work on, I usually cant because:

A) Im afraid they wont turn up, after a reputation of being a let down
B) They have handed personal advertising material around my regular clients (So out of order)
C) I dont know anyone around me that can deliver a standard of work my clients require
D) Very few people take this as seriously as me and seem to see it as a hobby



Interesting Read!

Posted 6 Oct 2009
ClaireShipman
Make Up Artist
ClaireShipma..
DianeDakin

 Interesting Read!


Hi Di,

You have a PM.

For all those that are wondering whats going on. Di has been taking a break from Make up so I would like to re-phrase my original post as I didn't know she was back when I wrote this.
Sorry Di  emoticon
Claire x
Posted 7 Oct 2009
Victoria_Howard
Make Up Artist
Victoria_How..
I dont think that every one undercuts intentionally. I think many people simply dont know what they are worth.

The average 20 year old whom, has just completed their training, has probably always worked for min wage or something daft like 6.50 an hour. So they think 25.00gbp an hour is great money.

There is a real problem with training center's not teaching young people what they are worth or how to get it.

I think you guys need to tackle this at both ends. Approach the training schools so that newbies coming in aren't coming in at silly fees.

Posted 7 Oct 2009
DianeDakin
Make Up Artist
DianeDakin
Apology Excepted Claire emoticon
Posted 7 Oct 2009
deetvstudio
Photographer
deetvstudio
DianeDakin

Apology Excepted Claire emoticon


It'd be better if it was Accepted surely?

Dave.emoticon

Posted 7 Oct 2009
DianeDakin
Make Up Artist
DianeDakin
deetvstudio

It'd be better if it was Accepted surely?

Dave.emoticon



It sure would look better!  I think i may need to go back to Schoolemoticon Cant all be perfect x
Posted 7 Oct 2009
deetvstudio
Photographer
deetvstudio
DianeDakin

It sure would look better!  I think i may need to go back to Schoolemoticon Cant all be perfect x


Sorry Diane! As often happens, I just couldn't resist it.
And as many other Members here will testify, I'm far from perfect myself - I was half expecting a Pot-Kettle-Black image to appear from one of them.
It has jogged my memory and reminded me of a t-shirt I always wanted when I was a kid though:
"POBODY'S  NERFECT"

Dave.
Posted 8 Oct 2009
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