Reminder Secure

Opinions, please.

14 June 2015 14:48
PaulManuell
Photographer


Would appreciate people's opinions on this, please. In the past I had a shoot with a model (no names). It was a paid shoot (I paid her) and nothing was mentioned before or after the shoot about her receiving images on top of her fee. However, I later noticed she's downloaded images from my profile and used them on her own profile. I txtd her about this, saying that although I was flattered she considered some of my work good enough that she wanted to use it herself, it would have been nice if she'd asked me first. She said that as they're photos of her she doesn't have to ask my permission to use them. I told her that the photographer owns copyright to his images, unless being paid by a client, and that unless it was a tfp shoot the model needs permission to use photos taken by a photographer who's paid her and not given her permission to use them. Indeed, she wasn't even given the images, they were just downloadf directly from my profile without my knowledge. Who's right in this situation? Thanks in advance for any constructive replies.


Chrissie Red is off-line
14 June 2015 17:15
Chrissie_Red
Model
Chrissie_Red
Location
United Kingdom
Tayside
Perthshire



This is kind of similar to a question I wanted to post recently.

My question would have been - Do photographers find it rude if a model asks how the images turned out after a paid shoot.
I don't ever want photographers to feel obliged to offer me images you see, and I don't want them to feel pressured either. Most of the people I work with are repeat bookings and If I had come across a nice shot on their own portfolio from the previous shoots I would obviously say to them on the next shoot "ohh I spotted that shot we did at X location, it looked amazing" and 9 times out of 10 the photographer will say "I would have sent it to you if you had asked". I just don't like asking/presuming or putting any pressure at all on a photographer to send me over images from a paid shoot because they are their images. I'm probably super paranoid/aware about that type of thing.

If I were you I would maybe say to models in the future (although it maybe shouldn't NEED to be said - especially to a model who is a professional) - that you DON'T give out images after a paid shoot, but that if they see any they would like to use then you would appreciate that they e-mail you rather than clicking/downloading from a portfolio website because that way of downloading can cause quality issues.

I do think you were in the right completely, its not cool to download photographers images from any kind of shoot - be it TF or paid, unless they directly tell you thats ok to do that. I normally wait to be offered or sent images regardless of the type of shoot it was from.

I remember years ago after a collaboration the photographer uploaded a couple of implied nudes to her Facebook and flickr account - given my reluctance to click/download I waited until she got in touch, I sent her a couple of messages asking how the images were looking 1 month after the shoot and then again 2 months after that and they were ignored.

It wasn't until over a year later that another model who had issues with not receiving images from the same photographer posted a status having a wee moan about it (nobody named names, we just mutually agreed that photographers are occasionally Chrissie_Red is a naughty person at sending images back and that TF shoots without getting images were pointless). Later that evening the photographer got in touch with me saying "ohh I thought you would have just clicked download on the few I uploaded, there was a couple more on my flickr".. Like I would instinctively go on her flickr and check up then download the images.. It was bloody mad! So some photographers do work in odd ways and expect models to have physic powers when it comes to how to get images.. (that was from a tf shoot)... Maybe your model worked with that photographer?

its all about communication, just be really upfront with models in the future to save it happening again. If more photographers educate models then this type of thing would happen less - annoyingly though there is a massive difference in how photographers work so one teacher/photographer can often say something different than another.

Basic rule I ever learned is - when your charging a photographer than you aren't entitled to any image after the shoot - most might be kind enough to let you use images but you should always wait to be offered and be grateful when it is.



w4pictures is off-line
14 June 2015 17:17
w4pictures
Photographer
w4pictures
Location
United Kingdom
London
Chiswick

You're right. Offer to sell them if you wish. If not, report.


w4pictures is off-line
14 June 2015 17:31
w4pictures
Photographer
w4pictures
Location
United Kingdom
London
Chiswick

Ha! Just seen Chrissie's very comprehensive reply.

What she says, especially the last bit which is both a practical and sensitive way to regard the situation.

There may be reasons (often contractual) why a photographer cannot share at least a few images with the model but otherwise it feels good to be generous in a small way and it discourages pic-nicking. Mind you, I usually offer a few of my snaps to the models, who seldom use them thereby sending a clear message of what they think of my photography!


14 June 2015 17:37
PaulManuell
Photographer


Thank you all for your replies. Am glad to see that, so far at least, I wasn't being out of order bringing it up with her. As I said, if it was a tfp shoot, then as far as I'm concerned she'd have been welcone to use as many or as few as she liked without asking my permission; that would have been what she was giving her time for after all. It's just that I paid to shoot with her and no request was asked or permission given for her to use any of the shots. It just comes across a bit wanting her cake and eating it. If she'd asked, obviously I'd have been delighted that she liked my work enough to want to use it, and would obviously have let her. It's just the principle really. And btw Chrissie, your views on using or getting photos from a paid shoot are totally commendable


Chrissie Red is off-line
14 June 2015 18:18
Chrissie_Red
Model
Chrissie_Red
Location
United Kingdom
Tayside
Perthshire

I always wait until a photographer specifically says "You are free to use any of these images" before I would take any.

Fairly often I get sent links to dropbox/flickr or sent images via e-mail and the photographers message is usually "Here are the images, can you tell me what you think of them?" - even then I give my opinion but don't ask if I can use the images, just because I don't want to make people feel uncomfortable - after all they only asked for an opinion which isn't the same as being given permission.

I remember a few years a photographer sent me a link to all of the images he took and asked my opinion, there was 1 totally outstanding shot that I instantly fell in love with so in my detailed reply about all the images I made a special note about that particular shot and advised he used it on his portfolio because it was seriously one of the nicest images I had seen of myself that year.

Unfortunately he never did use it and I never had the balls to ask him if I could use it, I'm sure though if he had responded saying "yes I can send it to you if you pay me" I probably would have been happy to pay him for the use of that image alone because I loved it.



14 June 2015 19:24
PaulManuell
Photographer


A real shame you missed out on that 1 image that you liked so much. Speaking personally, I'd be flattered, bordering on ecstatic if a model from a paid shoot complimented me on one of the images from the shoot and asked if she could have it. Money (her paying to have/use it) wouldn't even enter into it for me, I'd be on cloud nine that she liked it so much. I do totally see your point, though, that you'd feel it might cause some awkwardness asking for a photo from a shoot you were paid for. I suppose it's the same as the photographer offering models he's shot with (and paid to do so) a cd of the photos from the shoot, the model politely accepting, but said photos never appearing on her profile. I know, I was that photographer...... on more than one occasion, haha. Tis indeed a fine etiquette tightrope we all walk.


Chrissie Red is off-line
14 June 2015 19:41
Chrissie_Red
Model
Chrissie_Red
Location
United Kingdom
Tayside
Perthshire

I can see how that would be really discouraging if no images were used - I would kind of be reluctant to waste money/time on a cd to give to a model if she isn't even going to bother using any images. I do think some of the busier models do sometimes take awhile to get round to looking at images after shoots and they may end up looking at those images in a year and seeing something they like in them (it happens). I rarely post new images on my portfolios but you never know where a model might have posted a shot - she might just not have told you. I use lots of websites and scatter images on them all, if an image goes down really well (compared to my normal hits on that website) I often link the photographer to the upload so he/she can read the comments too.

If only we had a rule book, I guess its all about communication but very few of us want to feel the awkward that could happen if we did throw the cards on the table and request/offer/ask haha


Chrissie Red is off-line
14 June 2015 19:48
Chrissie_Red
Model
Chrissie_Red
Location
United Kingdom
Tayside
Perthshire

also.. its weird like a photographer will send me shots and say "just thought you might like to see these"..

So i respond saying thank you - so glad to have seen them, and compliment..

So to me - thats just showing me the images, not actually granting me permission. I would hate for the photographer to think "I thought she liked those images I sent, why hasn't she used any".

So maybe in some cases in the past its been crossed wires


Paul Hodson is off-line
15 June 2015 09:53
mph
Photographer
mph
Location
United Kingdom
Cheshire
Crewe

Quote from Chrissie_Red
also.. its weird like a photographer will send me shots and say "just thought you might like to see these".. So i respond saying thank you - so glad to have seen them, and compliment.. So to me - thats just showing me the images, not actually granting me permission. I would hate for the photographer to think "I thought she liked those images I sent, why hasn't she used any". So maybe in some cases in the past its been crossed wires



I don't often pay models - but when I do will still send them edited images with permission to do what the hell they like with them.
Amateur - happy to do TF with models with potential and enthusiasm. Website: www.mphodson.co.uk



32 Users currently online   Blue=Models Orange=Photographers Red=Agencies Purple=MUA/Stylists Grey=Studios Green=Moderators
Charlotte90 chosin danixhale jensomerfield scarlettfoxett
adamjt7 andygstudios basil Blancho clarmike Creativedge digitizer gazzer59 iestyn James7799 jpdo keltica lensman100 magpie1 mg mrdl Platidonio Puremoods redbaron Rhadamanthus Rhphoto Rscott360 Snooper911 stevegosh TinDolls wacTony Willjamieson