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TF* vs Paid shoots

16 November 2014 06:54
KNPhoto
Photographer


Hello all,

Just a quick question regarding Paid shoots. If paying a model, is it standard to furnish them with edited photos or is it assumed that they get the payment in exchange for their time?

A model has approached me for advice saying she was paid for the shoot and now the photographer is charging for copies of the images. Nothing was agreed beforehand except the payment for the model's time. No model release signed either.

I said that I suspected he was well within his rights to do this as he owns the images but was wondering, especially as I am soon to be looking to pay models, is this the done thing?

When TFP/TFCD means time in exchange for photographs, should the photographer then be obliged to provide images on a paid shoot at the model's request?

Help appreciated.


Gerry is off-line
16 November 2014 06:58
Gerry99111
Photographer
Gerry99111
Location
United Kingdom
Surrey
Guildford

No obligation on the photographer to provide images on a paid shoot unless that was discussed and agreed prior to the shoot as part of the deal.

Sounds like the model can't be arsed to do any TF to get portfolio images
If you have to ask why I do it, you will never understand the reason why


16 November 2014 07:07
KNPhoto
Photographer


Quote from Gerry99111
No obligation on the photographer to provide images on a paid shoot unless that was discussed and agreed prior to the shoot as part of the deal.

Sounds like the model can't be arsed to do any TF to get portfolio images



thanks for the reply.
To be fair to the model, she is a lot more experienced in front of the camera as the photographer is behind, hence the payment. I don't think she expected to get anything of benefit if it were a TF but you roll your dice and take your chances I guess.

You have confirmed what I thought. I am reasonably comfortable on copyright law etc but wondered what the general etiquette was.


marlham is off-line
16 November 2014 07:28
marlhamphoto
Photographer
This member has been reset to pending
marlhamphoto
Location
United Kingdom
Kent
Canterbury

Quote from Gerry99111
No obligation on the photographer to provide images on a paid shoot unless that was discussed and agreed prior to the shoot as part of the deal.


Whilst that's certainly the case the situation is somewhat muddied by the plethora of photographers who freely give edited images following paid shoots - it's very much the norm rather than the exception. So whilst many models will say they don't expect images from paid shoots they roll in nonetheless. And the danger is that what models see as widespread practice becomes tantamount to an expectation, or very close to it. You say the model is experienced and if that's the case it does sound as if she's being a bit disingenuous - particularly if she's dragging you into it.

Best advice is for both parties to be very clear about their expectations before a shoot and to realise that anything else is down to negotiation.


16 November 2014 07:47
KNPhoto
Photographer


Quote from marlhamphoto
Whilst that's certainly the case the situation is somewhat muddied by the plethora of photographers who freely give edited images following paid shoots - it's very much the norm rather than the exception. So whilst many models will say they don't expect images from paid shoots they roll in nonetheless. And the danger is that what models see as widespread practice becomes tantamount to an expectation, or very close to it. You say the model is experienced and if that's the case it does sound as if she's being a bit disingenuous - particularly if she's dragging you into it.



Best advice is for both parties to be very clear about their expectations before a shoot and to realise that anything else is down to negotiation.



Thanks for the reply - I agree that handing many photographers fail to see the value in their images and will hand them out. That goes from my experience as a commercial photographer mainly. The industry suffers greatly as a result.

I haven't been acting as negotiator or anything for this case - that's not my place. Her asking just made me realise a deficit in my own knowledge base.

I have been on The AOP site for model release forms but are there any others I/We should be aware of?



Gerry is off-line
16 November 2014 08:11
Gerry99111
Photographer
Gerry99111
Location
United Kingdom
Surrey
Guildford

Quote from KNPhoto
Thanks for the reply - I agree that handing many photographers fail to see the value in their images and will hand them out. That goes from my experience as a commercial photographer mainly. The industry suffers greatly as a result. I haven't been acting as negotiator or anything for this case - that's not my place. Her asking just made me realise a deficit in my own knowledge base. I have been on The AOP site for model release forms but are there any others I/We should be aware of?



That is though not the problem of us photographers. That is the models problem who assumed or expected to get images and is not entitled to any and has been offered the chance to buy them but not given them free. Other photographers may choose not to sell them because they have no interest in that.

If models want images from a shoot, they should bring that up before the shoot is negotiated and that can be included in the negotiation or excluded from the shoot or it can be decided that the shoot wont happen as the terms cannot be agreed.

I don't see how the photographer needs to feel they have lost out in this. If they want to give some images as a bonus, that is within their right but they certainly should not feel that something brought up after the shoot should put them in a position they are not happy with. When the shoot has finished, unless images were agreed before hand, that is the end of the photographers obligation, the model was paid for their time and anything else that may be asked for is a new negotiation that can be commenced or not as the interest applies
If you have to ask why I do it, you will never understand the reason why


marlham is off-line
16 November 2014 10:30
marlhamphoto
Photographer
This member has been reset to pending
marlhamphoto
Location
United Kingdom
Kent
Canterbury

Quote from KNPhoto
I have been on The AOP site for model release forms but are there any others I/We should be aware of?


I'm not sure why you've brought up the issue of model releases?

If a photographer commissions a model for a shoot with the intention of publication then he will provide a model release that's appropriate for his intended publisher. If the model is happy with the release (it's not unreasonable for her to request a copy for inspection in advance) then she should sign it. This is mainly relevant to photographers who shoot porn for publication on sites hosted in the USA. If the model is unhappy with images of her being potentially used on US porn sites then she should not sign a release - even if the photographer says that's not his intention IMO.

In the UK a model release has no relevance in law as a model has no rights to 'release' anyway. Although depending on how the 'release' is worded it may have unintended consequences for either party.

I suspect what you meant to refer to is a usage license for the model so she can use the images - which is not the same thing as a model release.


Sammy-Jane is off-lineSilver Member
17 November 2014 09:31
samanthajane4
Model
samanthajane4
Location
United Kingdom
Torfaen
pontypool

From my point of view I would never expect any images from any paid work, If the photographer was kind enough to send them over or offer to send some over then that is a great bonus.
If i was expecting images I would either agree to a TF, Part piad/Part TF or agree a price per image that i wanted prior to the shoot.

I know a few photographers who charge for images from a paid shoot or are willing to do them all for the fee they paid to the model for the shoot, Therefor turning it into a TF type of agreement.

Sam x
Sammy


OldMaster is off-line
21 November 2014 08:56
OldMaster
Photographer
OldMaster
Location
United Kingdom
Hertfordshire
Harpenden

A model should not expect images from a paid shoot unless agreed at the booking..as has been said. However the offer of edited pictures may certainly become a part of the deal reducing the rate on the day...which is nice!!


marlham is off-line
21 November 2014 10:33
marlhamphoto
Photographer
This member has been reset to pending
marlhamphoto
Location
United Kingdom
Kent
Canterbury

Quote from OldMaster
A model should not expect images from a paid shoot unless agreed at the booking..as has been said. However the offer of edited pictures may certainly become a part of the deal reducing the rate on the day...which is nice!!



I can't say I've ever encountered a model who's expressed an interest in part-paid. Only either TF or paid, never something in the middle. Is it really a common arrangement?



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