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israel and gaza

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 jivago Photographic is off-line
06 August 2014 19:25
jivago
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Quote from stolenfaces
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing




Not an accurate analogy. The Irish situation was so different - It was their own country for a start.

Check out the 'Stern-Gang'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29

...BTW Some of these became prominent Israeli politicians!
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Laurence Power is off-line
06 August 2014 19:43
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Quote from jivago
Not an accurate analogy. The Irish situation was so different - It was their own country for a start.

Check out the 'Stern-Gang'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29

...BTW Some of these became prominent Israeli politicians!



In exactly the same way as De Valera became president of Eire, comment "it was their own country", well as far as the Arabs are concerned it was their country until 1947 when it was handed over to the Israelis. But of course the Israelis go back to when they set up the country after their flight from Egypt. So who's land is it?

Laurence J. Power


 jivago Photographic is off-line
06 August 2014 19:57
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Quote from LaurenceJPower
..... But of course the Israelis go back to when they set up the country after their flight from Egypt. So who's land is it?




Do they really? - The tanakh/torah/bible is not a superstitious diatribe from the Dead Sea Scrolls era and is in fact a robust basis for UN international law then? Ahhhhhh Ok. Right!!!!!!!  Let's send a Task-force to re-take Pangea - Them pesky aboriginal indians! 

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Steve Guy is off-line
06 August 2014 20:11
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Quote from LaurenceJPower
In exactly the same way as De Valera became president of Eire, comment "it was their own country", well as far as the Arabs are concerned it was their country until 1947 when it was handed over to the Israelis. But of course the Israelis go back to when they set up the country after their flight from Egypt. So who's land is it?



Like all land everywhere. it belongs to those who have got it and can hang onto it. Aborigines in Australia, Maoris in New Zealand, North American Indians in the USA, are just a few examples of people who couldn't. Look at the areas of South America and see how the land corresponds to what was dished out by the Catholic Church. This may be an unpleasant thought, but it's a quite incontrovertible historical fact.

It' also worth remembering that the Palestinians, before Israel was formed, lived in a country that was an unholy mess, ironically for it being the 'Holy Land'. The Israelis took it and made it great. This in spite of being surrounded by countries and people who would cheerfully murder every last one of them.

The population of the Gaza Strip voted for and supported Hamas knowing full well their attitude towards Israel. If every resident of the strip donned uniform and marched on Israel they wouldn't stand a chance, and the casualty rate would probably be much the same as it is now. But by doing what they are doing, they have made themselves martyrs to the cause and every image of a dead 'civilian' is a victory for them. In a 'country' where the suicide bomb is an ordinary tool of war, how difficult is it to preach the doctrine of martyrdom as a victory making tactic? And, of course, every would be martyr knows he or she is heading straight to heaven and all those virgins.

Was the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the firebombing of Tokyo, which killed more than the nukes did, proportional? Or was it a necessity to prevent the war dragging on against a nation of fanatics?


 jivago Photographic is off-line
06 August 2014 20:28
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Quote from Sdeve
Like all land everywhere. it belongs to those who have got it and can hang onto it. Aborigines in Australia, Maoris in New Zealand, North American Indians in the USA, are just a few examples of people who couldn't. Look at the areas of South America and see how the land corresponds to what was dished out by the Catholic Church. This may be an unpleasant thought, but it's a quite incontrovertible historical fact. It' also worth remembering that the Palestinians, before Israel was formed, lived in a country that was an unholy mess, ironically for it being the 'Holy Land'. The Israelis took it and made it great. This in spite of being surrounded by countries and people who would cheerfully murder every last one of them. The population of the Gaza Strip voted for and supported Hamas knowing full well their attitude towards Israel. If every resident of the strip donned uniform and marched on Israel they wouldn't stand a chance, and the casualty rate would probably be much the same as it is now. But by doing what they are doing, they have made themselves martyrs to the cause and every image of a dead 'civilian' is a victory for them. In a 'country' where the suicide bomb is an ordinary tool of war, how difficult is it to preach the doctrine of martyrdom as a victory making tactic? And, of course, every would be martyr knows he or she is heading straight to heaven and all those virgins. Was the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the firebombing of Tokyo, which killed more than the nukes did, proportional? Or was it a necessity to prevent the war dragging on against a nation of fanatics?




What a really questionable post!

"The Israelis took it and made it great" - Erhhhhhh Yerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr right!  - Like South Africa was?

And BTW Yitzhak Shamir ex member of the violent terrorist sect 'The Stern Gang' was a well adjusted tolerant liberal and Moshe Dayan was a really nice guy - Yer It's all so great?! - And who are the fanactics?

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David Heels is off-line
07 August 2014 00:34
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Quote from LaurenceJPower
In exactly the same way as De Valera became president of Eire, comment "it was their own country", well as far as the Arabs are concerned it was their country until 1947 when it was handed over to the Israelis. But of course the Israelis go back to when they set up the country after their flight from Egypt. So who's land is it?




One might argue that it's Athiest land, as surely there were Athiests there, long before God was ever invented.



Steve Guy is off-line
07 August 2014 04:40
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Quote from jivago
What a really questionable post!

"The Israelis took it and made it great" - Erhhhhhh Yerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr right!  - Like South Africa was?

And BTW Yitzhak Shamir ex member of the violent terrorist sect 'The Stern Gang' was a well adjusted tolerant liberal and Moshe Dayan was a really nice guy - Yer It's all so great?! - And who are the fanactics?



It is your post that I quote here that is questionable. The Israelis did not keep the majority of Palestinians in virtual slavery to do their work for them. The kibbutzes and other communal farming projects were manned largely by Israelis who had come to Israel to have a country. It was in those farms that the land was transformed from desert and swamp to fertile productive land, often while defending themselves from neighbouring countries intent on mass murder. Nothing whatsoever comparable to South Africa, a country which has flourished beyond the wildest dreams of the Boers in recent years. Or not, as the case may be.

Yes, there were Jewish terror groups, or as they might have put it, freedom fighters, that were indeed fanatics, but they were not automatically supported by the Israeli population as a whole. Indeed here were many objectors. But, sooner or later, negotiations had to be conducted, as with the slimeballs McGuiness and Adams. The work of the Stern Gang never in their wildest excesses matched the murderous acts of the Arab terror groups.


 jivago Photographic is off-line
07 August 2014 13:48
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Quote from Sdeve

It is your post that I quote here that is questionable. The Israelis did not keep the majority of Palestinians in virtual slavery to do their work for them. The kibbutzes and other communal farming projects were manned largely by Israelis who had come to Israel to have a country. It was in those farms that the land was transformed from desert and swamp to fertile productive land, often while defending themselves from neighbouring countries intent on mass murder. Nothing whatsoever comparable to South Africa, a country which has flourished beyond the wildest dreams of the Boers in recent years. Or not, as the case may be. Yes, there were Jewish terror groups, or as they might have put it, freedom fighters, that were indeed fanatics, but they were not automatically supported by the Israeli population as a whole. Indeed here were many objectors. But, sooner or later, negotiations had to be conducted, as with the slimeballs McGuiness and Adams. The work of the Stern Gang never in their wildest excesses matched the murderous acts of the Arab terror groups.



Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000105 EndHTML:0000005507 StartFragment:0000002580 EndFragment:0000005471You post certainly was questionable in many respects.
 
Lets start from the top shall we?

Firstly to many of us the claim of the Zionists to Palestine etc is spurious, because it originates in a superstition i.e. Judaism – Which shares with all other brands of superstition no evidential or empirical underpinning to its doctrines. Hardly legal proof of title is it? We would all laugh if some guy claiming descent from King Priam turned up in Turkey, claiming title to that country based upon Homer’s Iliad – Would we not?

There is now no turning back the clock – Israel exists and is recognised in UN law – But it could behave much better: - No?
 
Many of us would perhaps find your attempt to legitimatise the atrocities of the Israelis by comparison to De Valera et al actually traduces De Valera and is so easily debunked as a fallacy. This is because millions of the Irish were actually in occupation of their own land at the time. Eire has been colonised by the British - And no far away diaspora made such a claim of questionable legitimacy.
 
The parallels between the plight of the indigenous Palestinians and the Apartheid era Africans have been made many times over. Let’s see now - A minority oppressing a majority and keeping them in abject poverty. Just how many of your kibbutzim grew oranges for the Palestinian poor? How many Kibbutzim occupy land annexed from Palestinians in breach of UN law? Just how many Palestinians enjoy the same legal rights as Israelis?
 
You can try to whitewash the likes of the Stern Gang if you want to try – But then all we have to do is to reel off from the litany of further atrocities – The massacres Sabra and Shatilla for example:-
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre
 
Look at the media. Does it look like vicious state sponsored atrocities, prosecuted in the name of a spurious superstition based claim to land?
 
 


http://www.jivagophoto.com/


DJ200 is off-line
08 August 2014 06:20
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Hummm..interesting observation. It looks like Hamas has just broken the ceasefire again.


Pentti Pohjonen is off-lineSilver Member
08 August 2014 10:15
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Quote from DJ200
Hamas has just broken the ceasefire again.


Someone is surprised that terrorists can't be trusted ?




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