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Utterly Appalled

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David Hibberd is off-line
08 March 2014 07:20
davidhibberd
Photographer
davidhibberd
Location
United Kingdom
Highland


Quote from actiongirl
There dont appear to be "set" rates which does make it hard to know who gets what, when and why. I do feel, in my heart, that its quite sad, really, to hear its such a positive thing to spend shedloads of money on the finest designer clothes, shoes, lingerie, make up, probably portfolios as well. Quite possibly some creativity is dulled at the alter of designer shopping. I love nice things and looking cool, but i feel that if your finances are more in line with the local charity shops, cheap chains, or markets then that really isnt a barrier to success. I never what to be one of these people who make money their God but the unfortunate thing is that if you do become one of these people, you are the last person to realize what you have become. Its important to keep wages up, i am all for that, but its a balancing act of not alienating the people who employ you



What a great post

Here for a short time for a good time


Iain Thomson is off-linePlatinum Member
08 March 2014 09:14
IainT
Photographer
IainT
Location
United Kingdom
Bedfordshire


Quote from actiongirl
There dont appear to be "set" rates which does make it hard to know who gets what, when and why.

I do feel, in my heart, that its quite sad, really, to hear its such a positive thing to spend shedloads of money on the finest designer clothes, shoes, lingerie, make up, probably portfolios as well. Quite possibly some creativity is dulled at the alter of designer shopping. I love nice things and looking cool, but i feel that if your finances are more in line with the local charity shops, cheap chains, or markets then that really isnt a barrier to success. I never what to be one of these people who make money their God but the unfortunate thing is that if you do become one of these people, you are the last person to realize what you have become.

Its important to keep wages up, i am all for that, but its a balancing act of not alienating the people who employ you



Very few things are a barrier to success if you are good at what you do. And simple economics dictate that the better you are at providing what the customers are looking for, the more successfull you will be and the higher the rewards within the economic paramiters of the time.

There is a market for the £15 model and presumably a low expectation to match. I guess if the model is happy with £15 and the photographer is happy with the model, then fine, everybody is happy.

But not so long ago £50 an hour was not unreasonable for the better models, now it seems £30/£40 is the rate for that standard of model. The drop in rates has been caused by market forces, but it also has a hugely detrimental effect on the model pool with the general standard of model available dropping dramatically over the last few years, simply because the type of girl likely to command high rates doesn't enter the business because its simply not worth it.

Bare in mind £25 an hour in modelling terms is equivalent to minimum wage if the model takes into account, travel, expenses and taxes. Baically, most models who run a legitimate full time business are earning around minimum wage. It is simply not economically possible to be a full time model who invests in her career, pays her taxes and charges £15 an hour. The economics simply don't add up.

Its not about making money your god, its about investing in your career and providing a service and trying to do the best job you can. I have found the best models in this business know their value, they are not necessarilly obcessed with money, but they know their worth, but also they are capable of doing a great job and often have excellent hair and make up skills, good styling sense and good quality model kit.

For a low figure you may well get a girl willing to get her kit off and let you take a few snaps, but this figure does not hire you a model, it simply doesn't.

Many amateur/bobby photographers may think its in their interest to "talk down" rates, but if they are serious photographers and want high standard models to be available to them either in return for payment or as a collaborative project, then plummeting model rates are not in their interest, any more than its in my interest.



I tend to be a modest man, but then I do have a lot to be modest about.


Paul Jones is off-line
08 March 2014 10:30
Paul_Jones
Photographer
Paul_Jones
Location
United Kingdom
Lancashire
Wigan

Quote from IainT
 For a low figure you may well get a girl willing to get her kit off and let you take a few snaps, but this figure does not hire you a model, it simply doesn't. 



You have quite firmly hit the nail on the head, there Iain. I totally agree. 




Best regards
Paul

 
www.PaulJones.org


Rich G is off-line
08 March 2014 11:38
SMILESPHOTO
Photographer
SMILESPHOTO
Location
United Kingdom
Kent


The issue of hourly rates is a contentious one. If I earn £10 an hour and work 8 hours but spend 2 hours travelling there and back then, since I don't receive travelling expenses, I reckon I earn £8 an hour as the time spent travelling is, in my opinion, company time as I have no choice in the matter. On the other hand, if I was to pay a model who lives round the corner for a shoot and book her for 4 hours and she accepts an offer of dinner afterwards then I don't expect to be charged for 6 hours as the extra 2 hours is her choice.

As Iain implies, you generally get what you pay for. I've shot with many models but my best results are nearly always with models I've paid. Ok, there will always be the odd exception - the new model who's one in a thousand or, vice versa, the professional who lets you down, but both these scenarios are very rare.

Models who earn the higher rates (EARN - not ASK!) will always benefit a photographer's portfolio regardless of whether that photographer is amateur or pro.
HAPPY TO WORK UP TO OPEN WALLET LEVELS


08 March 2014 20:00
JadedRed
Model


Quote from IainT
Very few things are a barrier to success if you are good at what you do. And simple economics dictate that the better you are at providing what the customers are looking for, the more successfull you will be and the higher the rewards within the economic paramiters of the time. There is a market for the £15 model and presumably a low expectation to match. I guess if the model is happy with £15 and the photographer is happy with the model, then fine, everybody is happy. But not so long ago £50 an hour was not unreasonable for the better models, now it seems £30/£40 is the rate for that standard of model. The drop in rates has been caused by market forces, but it also has a hugely detrimental effect on the model pool with the general standard of model available dropping dramatically over the last few years, simply because the type of girl likely to command high rates doesn't enter the business because its simply not worth it. Bare in mind £25 an hour in modelling terms is equivalent to minimum wage if the model takes into account, travel, expenses and taxes. Baically, most models who run a legitimate full time business are earning around minimum wage. It is simply not economically possible to be a full time model who invests in her career, pays her taxes and charges £15 an hour. The economics simply don't add up. Its not about making money your god, its about investing in your career and providing a service and trying to do the best job you can. I have found the best models in this business know their value, they are not necessarilly obcessed with money, but they know their worth, but also they are capable of doing a great job and often have excellent hair and make up skills, good styling sense and good quality model kit. For a low figure you may well get a girl willing to get her kit off and let you take a few snaps, but this figure does not hire you a model, it simply doesn't. Many amateur/bobby photographers may think its in their interest to "talk down" rates, but if they are serious photographers and want high standard models to be available to them either in return for payment or as a collaborative project, then plummeting model rates are not in their interest, any more than its in my interest.



Pretty much. If you want to make modelling your profession, really invest yourself in it, you can't charge the low end rates as standard, it's just not possible. There is too much work, too many expenses and not enough time to make that work. Serious models need to charge serious rates.

But there have always been models who have charged bargain basement rates. Some of them are just hobbyists with good jobs or rich partners putting some money back in the pot to cover their expenses. Or, for example, a model may have a taste for latex outfits may find a few shoots at these rates whilst never actually earning her anything close to a living will manage to keep herself in catsuits by modelling them on the occasional Saturday. Or the stay at home mum, managing to augment her income by letting you photograph her spread eagle on her living room floor whilst the kids are at school. These are not new inventions.

There may be some change in perception. First of all an idea of entitlement amongst photographers. If a model isn't good enough she owes you a low rate/TFP. Secondly failed comparisons. If you can get stay at home mum to let you photograph her foof for a tenner then the professional art nude model should charge less because everyone knows that getting to see vagina is worth more than non-vaggy nudity. Whilst levels have some outcome on rates, they are not the be all and end all.

I don't think models charging low rates is new or a problem at all. What may be a problem is some photographers perception of what this means overall.


Gerry is off-line
08 March 2014 22:13
Gerry99111
Photographer
Gerry99111
Location
United Kingdom
Surrey
Guildford

Quote from JadedRed

I don't think models charging low rates is new or a problem at all. What may be a problem is some photographers perception of what this means overall.



The internet modelling scene has changed and will continue to change. Nothing ever stays the same. I would imagine it is larger in numbers of people and turnover than what people call real modelling so for many this is the real world.

My view is that anything that is self employed will find its own level, but you cannot look at parts and then say that applies to everything.

My view is that someone who is worth £15 or less for a true paid shoot is actually worth nothing and not worth shooting because my needs are for people who can model and look the part. If someone is worth under £15, they are definitely not worth TFP with.

For me, I do value TFP and for that I know I have to invest a lot more in a shoot for the model than I do on a paid shoot and I have an obligation to supply images. I am also not adverse to trading so if someone of the right quality doesn't feel happy enough with a true TF but would like to trade something [collaboration or images for time and part pay] and I think they are worth it, then maybe a deal could be struck for under £15 per hour.

There are other people though who are happy shooting nudes with models who cannot really model, who look like the next door neighbours wife and don't have much in the way of outfits. Me, I wouldn't shoot them even if they paid me, I have no interest in shooting random stuff but I also know that other people are perfectly happy shooting someone as long as they are female and breathing. There is a demand for the £15 per hour nude model and there will be people willing to supply it.

Artists models seldom make over £15 per hour. It is how you structure yourself to make it work.

The question is how they make it work as a photographers model. Well that seems quite easy for some - they just work from home and get the photographers to come to them, don't spend much on outfits and just shoot for 2 or 3 hours and then send them on their way. It may be fun for them and then it certainly is far more than minimum wage.

That doesn't mean proper models with a great look need to drop their rates drastically, they are in a different market with a different set of circumstances.

I think there is a small market for good quality internet models to attract reasonable rates and a large market for random girls to attract low rates. Don't confuse the two, they are different and both can work for the model if they set themselves up to suit
If you have to ask why I do it, you will never understand the reason why


Kizer is off-lineSilver Member
09 March 2014 06:58
Kizer
Photographer
Kizer
Location
United Kingdom
Staffordshire
Stoke-on-Trent

You can over price your self and don't get any work or lower your prices and earn money simples really.
This is my hobby but in my day job I am grossly underpaid I have two choices work for less money or sit at home and earn nothing.
And we are in a recession money is tight these days if I can get a model for less money I will if a model is to expensive I will not work with them no matter how good they are at modeling.
Sorry if this upsets some people but these are my views it's a tough world out there and people hav'nt the money to through around these days


Beaverray is off-lineSilver Member
09 March 2014 10:38
beaverray
Photographer
beaverray
Location
United Kingdom
Cambridgeshire


Just by looking through the casting calls for models on here it's clear that paid work is at times scarce and as a result models will do what they can to earn even if it is below rates they would have charged when work was more plentiful.

You may find models who are happy to work for such rates as appalling but when bills still have to be paid £15ph is preferable to nothing per hour. I'm sure a lot of the models advertising these rates are amateurs and amateur photographers who will make nothing from a shoot from publication payments want to keep costs at a minimum so there will always be a market for such models and it also follows that hobbyist models who may earn £8ph in their day to day job are happy getting nigh on double for modelling part time. Shops and businesses cut prices and margins at various times to reflect the trading environment and models are having to do the same. Magazines for example used to pay top dollar for photosets yet now pay less than half of those rates and photographers look to reduce costs too to maintain some sort of profit margin and as such again this creates work for models happy to work for such rates.


09 March 2014 15:39
JadedRed
Model


I can't speak for others but in my experience having low rates (say £20 an hour or less) doesn't increase my workload. It may seem obvious that lower rates = more work but I've not seen any evidence of that when falling below a certain level, I can't say why.

I think that middle ground between TFP and "reasonable" rates is much overrated, probably with most photographers falling in to groups of 'will pay decent amount for decent model' and 'doesn't want to pay at all', rather than existing on a continuous scale. And since those kind of rates aren't maintainable for most models (and aren't even remotely worth twice as much as an £8 an hour day to day job for reasons already explained) those girls tend to disappear rather than develop so there isn't much keeping that level going.


Beaverray is off-lineSilver Member
09 March 2014 19:03
beaverray
Photographer
beaverray
Location
United Kingdom
Cambridgeshire


The thing is there will always be a steady stream of models happy to work for rates such as £15ph and these will be models who don't intend to pursue it as a full time job as after tax and travel it wouldn't be viable (as already pointed out by Iain T) but see it as a nice little source of extra income for a while (and I won't get into the debate of them paying or not paying tax!) and as well as that there will always be amateur & hobbyist photographers who want models with the least outlay possible and if they can't get models on a TF basis will look at the next best option for them.

As I said previously, with publishers having their budgets slashed and in turn the money paid to photographers reduced I do feel that there are becoming less and less options of work for models who are used to commanding a higher rate and photographers will invariably look at models offering cheaper rates as a way to preserve some profit in what they do. As a photographer I can't say up yours to a magazine as they want to offer me a third less for a photoset that two years ago as l either want the work or I don't and there will be a queue of people behind me happy to do it do the reduced rate and it's no different for the models.



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