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Utterly Appalled

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Andrew Gibbins is off-line
06 March 2014 11:14
andrew_gibbins
Photographer
andrew_gibbins
Location
United Kingdom
South Yorkshire
Sheffield

Quote from stolenfaces


If you are trying to agree with Iain T, then you are not expressing yourself very well.
If you are disagreeing with him, then just say that, rather than all this generalized comments which suggest you think all 'models' on this site are simple commodities which are interchangeable.
If you think a 'model' is too expensive then don't book her.... pretty simple. If you want to discuss 'over-paid' people there are plenty of more interesting groups to discuss.
Whatever you think the going rate for experienced models like the OP is, it is not £15ph, so I can understand why she would find it insulting, probably more so than being pitched a TFP deal.

One reason that many people are not prepared to pay for clothed work, is that any decent photographer with a circle of friends doesn't need to use the internet to find pretty women who are prepared to model for fun..



This is not about agreeing or disagreeing with anyone, but just saying what I think. It may come as a shock to you, but models are actually a "commodity" if you will. They sell a service which in turn is needed by someone. Thats buy and sell, which makes it a commodity. Much like a mechanic sells his services to people to fix their cars. Its a commodity to sell your services, no matter how you put it. And you sell your services for the price that it goes for, of course, otherwise it cannot be sold.

Having the argument about how much your services are worth is pointless in this business, as it depends on what a buyer wants to pay for you. Its that simple. Being a model doesn't exempt you from "supply and demand" at all, even though some people here might think so.

I never said that paying £15 / hour for a model doing nudes is fair or alright in any respect. I do, like the OP, feel that it is a lowblow, and should be handled as such. But I also feel charging £50 / hour for it is wrong too, but many models think that is alright. The current pricing is fair and square, which is at £25 / hour for nudes.

But as for prices, I think shooting nudes and shooting fashion is basically the same, and should be handled as such. But then again, we have many models having a price scale for their "levels", which suggests to me that "I dont do fashion so well, so I just charge a small amount for that, but I do nudes perfectly, so I can charge a lot for it", which makes them look strange to me.

I know many models and photographers will disagree with me, but something is seriously wrong with the current ladder of pricing. I like models who keep to one price ladder, which only multiplies for time. That way, its much easier to handle and to actually remember. But having 5 different ones is just .. well...

Hope I am not offending anyone, I just state my opinion


Andrew Gibbins is off-line
06 March 2014 11:24
andrew_gibbins
Photographer
andrew_gibbins
Location
United Kingdom
South Yorkshire
Sheffield

Quote from JadedRed
Again you are showing ignorance of modelling but trying to tell models what modelling is like. Nudity does demand a premium generally, there is less supply and more demand on sites like these. Now if a model is getting her full whack rate to shoot whatever, or she is earning enough shooting nudes and not particularly interested in shooting anything else then it would be poor business sense to charge less for fashion, she would be simply wasting time working for the lower wages. Now if a model is unable to earn enough shooting just nudes, or she would like to shoot other things also for her own enjoyment but is not being hired for these at her usual rate then lowering rates to capture this currently unexplored market makes perfect business sense.  


Saying it's not worth paying more for nudity may be your particular view of your own needs but does not in anyway describe the market. We could always run a poll and see how much photographers have spent on hiring models over the internet for entirely non-nude work and compare it to the amount that has been spent on hiring models for work involving nudity. I think if we were honest we would find that there would be more money going in to nude work, and yet less models doing nude work.




I can agree with you a bit on this statement. There are, and always will be, more demands for nudes than other work. Thats logical. There are most male photographers, and they tend to photograph what they like, which is naked women. Thats a bit of logic, and its very simple. However, the supply has far from dropped down. If you take the time to scroll through PS, you will see that. Also, if one doesnt get a model through here or other sites like this, one can always pick up the phone and call one of the gazillion agencies in this country handling girls who will do it.

But I do disagree with you that nudity requires premium rates. Thats an illusion that was created by people back when models were not as accessible as they are today. And that is a fact. If you feel your nudes are more worth than your other work, then it is you who is the problem, and need to rethink your business strategy.

Most photographers I know they go to a model and say: "we will shoot up to nude, lets discuss rates."

If you get a call like that, you go: "well, i charge xx for fashion, xx for lingerie, xx for glamour, xx for glamour nudes and xx for adult". That would be so much more inconvenient than saying "I will shoot up to nudes for xx / hour", right?

That way, you are not low blowing your skills at all, and are taking all skill sets under the umbrella and have one price for it. I can not imagine having a model for 6 hours with different prices depending on what we shoot, that would be too inconvenient, and one would have to time everything to get the rate correct.

I guess you see my point now? But if that works for you, good luck with it. I would suggest having a one rate system. That way its very easy to find out how much it will cost to hire your services.


06 March 2014 12:08
JadedRed
Model


Quote from andrew_gibbins
I can agree with you a bit on this statement. There are, and always will be, more demands for nudes than other work. Thats logical. There are most male photographers, and they tend to photograph what they like, which is naked women. Thats a bit of logic, and its very simple. However, the supply has far from dropped down. If you take the time to scroll through PS, you will see that. Also, if one doesnt get a model through here or other sites like this, one can always pick up the phone and call one of the gazillion agencies in this country handling girls who will do it. But I do disagree with you that nudity requires premium rates. Thats an illusion that was created by people back when models were not as accessible as they are today. And that is a fact. If you feel your nudes are more worth than your other work, then it is you who is the problem, and need to rethink your business strategy. Most photographers I know they go to a model and say: "we will shoot up to nude, lets discuss rates." If you get a call like that, you go: "well, i charge xx for fashion, xx for lingerie, xx for glamour, xx for glamour nudes and xx for adult". That would be so much more inconvenient than saying "I will shoot up to nudes for xx / hour", right? That way, you are not low blowing your skills at all, and are taking all skill sets under the umbrella and have one price for it. I can not imagine having a model for 6 hours with different prices depending on what we shoot, that would be too inconvenient, and one would have to time everything to get the rate correct. I guess you see my point now? But if that works for you, good luck with it. I would suggest having a one rate system. That way its very easy to find out how much it will cost to hire your services.



I never said the supply had dropped down, or anything of the sort. I said the supply of nude models is lower than the supply of clothed models, this is a fact. Almost all models will shoot clothed work, only some will shoot nude work. The overall amount is not the issue since we are comparing.

I never said nudity requires premium rates either. It is not an illusion that it earns more, on these sites that is a fact. If i only did clothed work I would earn less money. If i refused to do any completely non-nude work I would lose a much, much smaller amount of work. This is true of most models on these sites. My nude work IS worth more in the overall market than my clothed work, that's why I get hired for more nude work, that's not "my problem" that's a stone cold fact. A refusal to recognise that fact would be poor business.

Skills don't set the price, demand for those skills does, if i were the super best at fashion model posing I still would get more nude work on this site. Why? Because that's where the demand is at.

I never once mentioned my pricing structure (although it doesn't exactly require extensive research to work out) so your conclusion about them seems to have been pulled out of thin air. If anyone finds it too difficult to figure out how much it will cost to hire my services then I'm not sure I want to work with them, they may have difficulty finding the shutter release.

I never "low blow" my skills, I charge as much as I feel I can probably get.

And since I'm always curious about this, and assumptions cannot be made, exactly what is your level and type of experience as a model and your achievements that lead you to believe you are in a position to give me advice on how to be successful at modelling?






Chris is off-line
06 March 2014 12:48
CCP
Photographer
CCP
Location
United Kingdom
Essex
Near East London

I was thinking of offering nude models apprenticeships for £2.50 per hour, or ringing up the job centre and getting them to work for free as work experience, and if they're no good, phone up the jobcentre and complain so they get they're benefits stopped. Then when they've got to go out begging, I could offer them a sandwich for a shoot. Just a thought. That's the way the country's gone I am afraid. 

  


Iain Thomson is off-linePlatinum Member
06 March 2014 12:49
IainT
Photographer
IainT
Location
United Kingdom
Bedfordshire


Just a point on the nudity issue.

Of the models who usually use the internet to secure bookings, excluding adult levels, my guess is that the models who are regularly able to charge the most (£40/£50) an hour are one or two very high standard part-time models who shoot to lingerie levels only.

Its fair to say that by far the majority of photographers using these sites simply want to see a girl naked...any naked girl, really, but if a model has an exceptional look and figure, then there are still quite a few photographers who value this and who will book her and pay a decent price for the privilige regardless of nudity.
I tend to be a modest man, but then I do have a lot to be modest about.


Andy is off-line
06 March 2014 13:27
photostore
Photographer
photostore
Location
United Kingdom
Fife
fife based, but Scotland wide

So your semi professional ? so that usually means around these parts  i get paid on occasion for some modelling and dont pay any tax, argue if you like but thats the reality of most models on this and other internet sites, so whatever you get probably goes straight in the hipper, £15.00 or whatever rate you charge above this seems like good money to most on here who have legit full time jobs. and pay tax / insurance.

If you dont like, or get paid enough by "this industry" then do something which satifies your self worth ? 

sounds like your P***** off as you are getting undercut, and losing out on work, those cheaper models may not be the best, then again they may well be much better ? but one things for sure they will probably improve while you are not modelling !

same applies to long term photographers decrying new kids on the block, get over it, improve, compete  or look for another career !
lets get shootin


Neil Anderson is off-line
06 March 2014 15:13
stolenfaces
Photographer
stolenfaces
Location
United Kingdom
London
West London

Quote from andrew_gibbins

It may come as a shock to you, but models are actually a "commodity" if you will. They sell a service which in turn is needed by someone. Thats buy and sell, which makes it a commodity. Much like a mechanic sells his services to people to fix their cars. Its a commodity to sell your services, no matter how you put it. And you sell your services for the price that it goes for, of course, otherwise it cannot be sold.




Definition of 'Commodity'

1. A basic good used in commerce that is interchangeable with other commodities of the same type. Commodities are most often used as inputs in the production of other goods or services. The quality of a given commodity may differ slightly, but it is essentially uniform across producers. When they are traded on an exchange, commodities must also meet specified minimum standards, also known as a basis grade.



Like any dealer he was watching for the card that is so high and wild he'll never need to deal another...


 jivago Photographic is off-line
07 March 2014 04:56
jivago
Photographer
jivago
Location
United Kingdom
Highland
Highlands & Cheshire

Quote from Klouise1992
.... what is going on with the industry... why do I keep seeing people offering £15 or less for full frontal nude!! And what models are accepting this!! This is not on.... no way should models being getting fully nude for that sort of money.  



 - Why?
http://www.jivagophoto.com/


Daniel Richardson is off-line
07 March 2014 05:13
dannyrich
Photographer
dannyrich
Location
United Kingdom
North Yorkshire


Always find it strange that models charge more for nude than they do for fashion.

With fashion they have clothes and shoes to buy.

In terms of paying for models, you surely should be paying for the modelling ability not the situation. I personally have looked to shoot art nude models in a fashion style because that way I know the posing will have an elegance that I like.


Neil Anderson is off-line
07 March 2014 05:26
stolenfaces
Photographer
stolenfaces
Location
United Kingdom
London
West London

Quote from dannyrich
Always find it strange that models charge more for nude than they do for fashion.



With fashion they have clothes and shoes to buy.



In terms of paying for models, you surely should be paying for the modelling ability not the situation. I personally have looked to shoot art nude models in a fashion style because that way I know the posing will have an elegance that I like.



Perhaps you should actually read the thread then.
Several people have clearly explained why nude modelling commands a premium over clothed.

Most photographers who pay do so because the model fits the look they want (and they think the model will turn up).
If they're not interested in paying then the photographer may take what they can get.

Like any dealer he was watching for the card that is so high and wild he'll never need to deal another...



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