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Utterly Appalled

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OldMaster is off-line
06 March 2014 05:22
OldMaster
Photographer
OldMaster
Location
United Kingdom
Hertfordshire
Harpenden

..."why do I keep seeing people offering £15 or less for full frontal nude!!"

And why shouldn't they. Perhaps they are inexperienced or just coming out of TF/CD. Perhaps you are concerned to "protect your industry" Ha!! With professional photographers worth around £10-£15 per hour now, when we used to charge £50 p/h some 25 years ago and not getting paid at all by models these days I find this laughable.

I think thou dost protest too much!

It's a wake up call for models now I am pleased to say with hundreds of new one coming into the market every day thinking they can earn money just taking their clothes off..which they probably can but why should wandering around nude be worth over twice the minimum wage? Not too hard a job really or perhaps you feel your "skill set" for this is much greater than the knowledge required to be a successful and technically competent tog??

And I have never understood the logic of being nude being worth more than any other style unless you work on the principle of you want to see more, you pay more!! If you are modelling it is a time based operation and I believe you are worth the hourly rate the market determines whatever "level" you choose to work at. The caveat is Adult because usually the work is sold on to third parties or commissioned differently in the first place...

If you are good enough to command higher rates and people are paying you higher rates I don't really see what your problem is!!


Andrew Gibbins is off-line
06 March 2014 06:21
andrew_gibbins
Photographer
andrew_gibbins
Location
United Kingdom
South Yorkshire
Sheffield

Quote from Chrissie_Red
Because generally people working on minimum wage are being paid a wage -  The benefits I can see for working a "normal" job are as follow -



You know when you are working, it will be a set amount of hours a week - you will probably live fairly close to your work so wont have to spend 1-2-3-4 hours travelling to work in a day. If you have to wear a uniform you will be supplied one (meaning you wont have to go out and buy crazy amounts of clothes/shoes you would never wear away from a camera). You also wont have to drag 2 suitcases to work with you everyday. You're breaks are scheduled, and you are paid during them. If you wake up one morning feeling like you are about to die you can phone your work and explain how andrew_gibbins is a naughty person you are feeling and your boss will say "hope you are feeling better tomorrow" rather than presume you are bullandrew_gibbins is a naughty person ting then post a thread about it on purestorm. 



You wont have to really keep up with exercising if you really can't be arsed - you wont need to have a gym membership or the expense of exercise equiptment at home to help keep yourself as fit as possible. If your hair dye roots come in you can afford to leave it a few days if you have a normal job, nobody gives a crap at tesco if you have visable roots. If you fancy a holiday during the summer you wont have to worry too much about the bills being paid - because you get some paid holidays to take. 



You wont have to spend a horrific amount on the best makeup either, you know the stuff designed for photoshoots. You wont come home from work and empty a bag full of things you haven't wore and spend an hour putting it all away again or cleaning those you have worn - then spend time the next day hanging it up and putting it away again.



You wont have to get up 2 hours before leaving work to shave your legs/ moisturise your skin, do your makeup and style your hair - oh and pack a bag full of clothes you probably wont wear.



If you are booked for a location shoot (and even some studios) and it happens to be really f$%king cold then you can't just say "its cold, lets do this another day" - not if you rely on that money to pay a bill. As a model I push my body in ways that other people away from modelling think are completely crazy.



You wont spend hours a week updating portfolios/blogs and keeping up an active bunch of profiles or posting casting calls for a regular job. These hours do count as "working". 



If after all the travelling - packing/unpacking/ makeup/hair you still have time you spend it doing admin work, replying to mails about shoots or confirming arrangements. When you do finally sit down to actually have a bit of time for yourself in the evening your phone goes off and you are supposed to be on "call" pretty much 12 hours a day responding to people you are going to work with or else they will think you are going to cancel on them.



Sorry but you really can't compare having a regular job to modelling.. 



If I didn't love photographs and modelling I wouldn't do it - I certainly don't do it for the money but I do believe if you are doing a good job then you should be paid fairly for that job.






Oh come on. That can be said for any freelance industry. I know someone who runs his own webstore with thousands of customers all by himself, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have to be up at 5am and in bed at 1am. Singlehandedly doing all the work, because the saturation in the market he is in demands his prices are at a minimum.

Modelling is not different from any other freelance work, and you get paid what others are willing to pay you. As with any other industry, the market is saturated, and therefore the prices drops. How you push your boundaries, how you do things many others think is crazy is irrelevant in this matter. In the end, its a valunteer job which demands this and that from you. Don't like that, then don't do it. Fairly simple.

Oh, you said that you get up 2 hours before a shoot to do this and that? My wife (!!!!) gets up 3 (!!!) hours before work to do the EXACT same thing you do. She uses an HOUR to do her makeup and she uses products she KNOWS works. She works as a customer consultant for a phone company and has customer relations all day long. How is that different from what you are doing? And she gets paid £11 / hour for what she is doing.

I have to agree with the other poster here, saying there is no bloody difference in modelling lingerie or nude. Its a matter of skill set. Why is nude more worth it than lingerie? Just because you show your boobs and ass? In the past, that "could" be an excuse, as we didn't have the internet. But I don't know ANY photographers who hire a model just to have someone to "look at". They are hired based on skill set. If your skills are art nudes, then it is. If your skill set is lingerie, then it is. There is no difference.

I did a test one day for the heck of it, and phoned up Estella Warren's agency here in the UK asking for pricing (dont ask, she was veeeeeeeeeery expensive, as I already knew), BUT her rate for lingerie versus nude was the same. They said it didnt make a difference. The ONLY difference was if it was to be published. The price goes up the more you want to sell her. Plain and simple.

So imho I find it pretty "appalling" (if I may use that word for it) that models assume that they are worth more just because they show their boobies and their ass. I kinda like models who have one flat rate, and as long as you keep within their sphere of modelling, they are happy campers.

Paying £50 an hour for nudes contra £15 for fashion (taken from ONE model's price list here on PS) is, sorry to say, pretty appalling too...


Chrissie Red is off-line
06 March 2014 06:36
Chrissie_Red
Model
Chrissie_Red
Location
United Kingdom
Tayside
Perthshire

Quote from andrew_gibbins
Oh come on. That can be said for any freelance industry. I know someone who runs his own webstore with thousands of customers all by himself, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have to be up at 5am and in bed at 1am. Singlehandedly doing all the work, because the saturation in the market he is in demands his prices are at a minimum. Modelling is not different from any other freelance work, and you get paid what others are willing to pay you. As with any other industry, the market is saturated, and therefore the prices drops. How you push your boundaries, how you do things many others think is crazy is irrelevant in this matter. In the end, its a valunteer job which demands this and that from you. Don't like that, then don't do it. Fairly simple. Oh, you said that you get up 2 hours before a shoot to do this and that? My wife (!!!!) gets up 3 (!!!) hours before work to do the EXACT same thing you do. She uses an HOUR to do her makeup and she uses products she KNOWS works. She works as a customer consultant for a phone company and has customer relations all day long. How is that different from what you are doing? And she gets paid £11 / hour for what she is doing. I have to agree with the other poster here, saying there is no bloody difference in modelling lingerie or nude. Its a matter of skill set. Why is nude more worth it than lingerie? Just because you show your boobs and ass? In the past, that "could" be an excuse, as we didn't have the internet. But I don't know ANY photographers who hire a model just to have someone to "look at". They are hired based on skill set. If your skills are art nudes, then it is. If your skill set is lingerie, then it is. There is no difference. I did a test one day for the heck of it, and phoned up Estella Warren's agency here in the UK asking for pricing (dont ask, she was veeeeeeeeeery expensive, as I already knew), BUT her rate for lingerie versus nude was the same. They said it didnt make a difference. The ONLY difference was if it was to be published. The price goes up the more you want to sell her. Plain and simple. So imho I find it pretty "appalling" (if I may use that word for it) that models assume that they are worth more just because they show their boobies and their ass. I kinda like models who have one flat rate, and as long as you keep within their sphere of modelling, they are happy campers. Paying £50 an hour for nudes contra £15 for fashion (taken from ONE model's price list here on PS) is, sorry to say, pretty appalling too...



I'm not moaning about the figure I get paid, if I didn't like modelling (as a whole) I wouldn't do it. I also don't charge different rates for showing my "boobies and ass" as you so politely called them.
If it was about money I wouldn't be modelling because the security one gets in a "regular" job would be feel amazing. Really it would, and you also can't compare a freelance model to that of a website host or designer because generally their "work" is at home, and they don't have to travel throughout the UK with suitcases sleeping in hotels alone and away from family and friends.

Thats great that your wife spends 3 hours getting ready before she has to leave for work, if I'm not modelling I don't usually put makeup on (skin likes to breathe so its nice to give the face a bit of a break from being all clogged up) and I don't tend to style my hair if I'm not modelling (because over styling with hot products completely ruins your hair.. so I only do it when its needed). 


Working in a call centre is nothing at all like working as a freelance model - but if you don't "get it" then you never will.


Iain Thomson is off-linePlatinum Member
06 March 2014 07:11
IainT
Photographer
IainT
Location
United Kingdom
Bedfordshire


I dont think anyone should feel threatened by other service providers offering lower rates than you do. Its not like buying a particular brand of product from a supermarket where you are comparing like for like. In this business, as a general rule if you are good enough you will be paid a sensible rate, if you are not, in theory you won,t. Although in practice the manjority of models touting for business on model sites are not worth any form of payment regardless of the level...certainly as far as published work goes.

A £15 an hour model is a £15 an hour model, in fact its unlikely she is a model, she is a girl who is happy to take her clothes of in return for cash. Most proper models have a bottom line...I guess at the moment thats around £25 an hour, although personally I feel any model who is worth actually paying at all, is probably worth more than £25 an hour. And most proper models who are ok with nudity dont distingish between clothed and nude work, they are simply accepting payment in return for their time.

My business is particulary cut-throat right now , but my position is to ignore what other producers do or charge and get on with what I do and charge the rates I feel appropriate. I am constantly told by various clients that I am the most expensive producer in Europe and from time to time we fall out and they hire a cheaper producer. That usually lasts for a few months until they discover that cheaper production = a low quality product = less sales for them.... and back they come...realising they are actually getting better value for money at the higher price.

If as a model you feel the service you offer is better than most of your contemporaries, dont be concerned with what others charge, be concerned with being better than they are and providing better value for money.
I tend to be a modest man, but then I do have a lot to be modest about.


06 March 2014 08:21
JadedRed
Model


Quote from Chrissie_Red
Because generally people working on minimum wage are being paid a wage -  The benefits I can see for working a "normal" job are as follow -

You know when you are working, it will be a set amount of hours a week - you will probably live fairly close to your work so wont have to spend 1-2-3-4 hours travelling to work in a day. If you have to wear a uniform you will be supplied one (meaning you wont have to go out and buy crazy amounts of clothes/shoes you would never wear away from a camera). You also wont have to drag 2 suitcases to work with you everyday. You're breaks are scheduled, and you are paid during them. If you wake up one morning feeling like you are about to die you can phone your work and explain how JadedRed is a naughty person you are feeling and your boss will say "hope you are feeling better tomorrow" rather than presume you are bullJadedRed is a naughty person ting then post a thread about it on purestorm. 

You wont have to really keep up with exercising if you really can't be arsed - you wont need to have a gym membership or the expense of exercise equiptment at home to help keep yourself as fit as possible. If your hair dye roots come in you can afford to leave it a few days if you have a normal job, nobody gives a crap at tesco if you have visable roots. If you fancy a holiday during the summer you wont have to worry too much about the bills being paid - because you get some paid holidays to take. 

You wont have to spend a horrific amount on the best makeup either, you know the stuff designed for photoshoots. You wont come home from work and empty a bag full of things you haven't wore and spend an hour putting it all away again or cleaning those you have worn - then spend time the next day hanging it up and putting it away again.

You wont have to get up 2 hours before leaving work to shave your legs/ moisturise your skin, do your makeup and style your hair - oh and pack a bag full of clothes you probably wont wear.

If you are booked for a location shoot (and even some studios) and it happens to be really f$%king cold then you can't just say "its cold, lets do this another day" - not if you rely on that money to pay a bill. As a model I push my body in ways that other people away from modelling think are completely crazy.

You wont spend hours a week updating portfolios/blogs and keeping up an active bunch of profiles or posting casting calls for a regular job. These hours do count as "working". 

If after all the travelling - packing/unpacking/ makeup/hair you still have time you spend it doing admin work, replying to mails about shoots or confirming arrangements. When you do finally sit down to actually have a bit of time for yourself in the evening your phone goes off and you are supposed to be on "call" pretty much 12 hours a day responding to people you are going to work with or else they will think you are going to cancel on them.

Sorry but you really can't compare having a regular job to modelling.. 

If I didn't love photographs and modelling I wouldn't do it - I certainly don't do it for the money but I do believe if you are doing a good job then you should be paid fairly for that job.




It always saddens me when someone has to explain something so obvious. Are people really so deluded or is it a manipulation technique, I can't decide.

As someone who works a minimum wage job I can assure you it's easier money than modelling through sites like these.


Chrissie Red is off-line
06 March 2014 09:10
Chrissie_Red
Model
Chrissie_Red
Location
United Kingdom
Tayside
Perthshire

Quote from JadedRed
It always saddens me when someone has to explain something so obvious. Are people really so deluded or is it a manipulation technique, I can't decide.

As someone who works a minimum wage job I can assure you it's easier money than modelling through sites like these.



I have no idea - 

the weird thing is that when "outsiders" say things like - "well all photographers do is turn up and take some pictures" they are quickly put in their place and are told about all the kit/editing time etc but when a model states the obvious we are told its much like every other freelance job. I highly doubt anybody else freelancing in Scotland is required to stand on a mountain with no clothes on in the snow for the same pay as one would get sat at home doing coding or designing a website.  

Not a complaint at all - I no longer model 4-5 days a week because I don't like being away from home, my body can't cope with the conditions of location shoots for days on end and I was finding my personal life didn't exsist. I really admire the girls who do manage to shoot for weeks on end with barely a day off, I know after a few months of doing it I realised that the "full time" option wasn't for me at all.

There are boring/crap aspects to everyjob, the good in modelling outweighs the bad for me but I don't think it could ever be compared to working a 9-5 job - not saying 9-5 jobs aren't mentally demanding but it doesn't require the same amount of planning or aftercare as modelling does and you get a regular monthly wage which means you can plan your finances better.



Andrew Gibbins is off-line
06 March 2014 09:18
andrew_gibbins
Photographer
andrew_gibbins
Location
United Kingdom
South Yorkshire
Sheffield

First of all, I never said I don't get the modelling. I am just trying to make an argument that models are not as badly off as they claim they are sometimes. Lets see if I can explain myself in a manner that is sufficient this time:

1) I never "compared" my wife's job with a model. I merely said that there are other professions where people spend the equal amount of time to get ready as a model do.

2) No, you can't really compare a webstore owner with a model, but lets compare a travelling salesman with one then. They travel all over the UK, sleep at hotels and all the other stuff, and work their asses off. No job security there either, but they do it nonetheless.

3) I am sorry for my "boobs and ass" terminology, but it was my english again that was a bit bad. What I meant was that when models find it in them to charge £50 for nudes and £15 for fashion and lingerie, something is wrong with their sense of this business. Their "nudity" is not worth paying extra £35 / hour for. There should be no difference between nudes and fashion to be honest. The difference would be there if they were to just be there to "hold a show", but thats not their job now is it? Their job is to provide a service which photographers like me need. And then charging different rates for different "skills" would be wrong.

4) I never said that modelling is not hard. Having been in this business a while, I know it for a fact. BUT, so it is to be a photographer. When a model shows up, with all the preparing, she does her job, and when finished, her part of that is over. A photographer has to edit, crop, fix and all other things with the images, not to mention working their asses off to sell them (unless they just do it for the fun of it, which imho spending £50 / hour is not a wise spending thing). And then we have all the bending, stretching and all other stuff we photographers do as well when shooting. And, as someone else said, our prices has been drastically reduced over the years as well.

Its a saturated business, and the UK has soooooooooooooo many models its almost beyond belief. One charge what they think they are worth, but one has to keep with the market too.


06 March 2014 09:37
BaileyK
Model


It does make me laugh... Why do people concern themselves so much over other people?!
It seems that they care more what others do than concentrating on being a success & helping themselves


06 March 2014 09:37
JadedRed
Model


Quote from andrew_gibbins
I am sorry for my "boobs and ass" terminology, but it was my english again that was a bit bad. What I meant was that when models find it in them to charge £50 for nudes and £15 for fashion and lingerie, something is wrong with their sense of this business. Their "nudity" is not worth paying extra £35 / hour for.



Again you are showing ignorance of modelling but trying to tell models what modelling is like. Nudity does demand a premium generally, there is less supply and more demand on sites like these. Now if a model is getting her full whack rate to shoot whatever, or she is earning enough shooting nudes and not particularly interested in shooting anything else then it would be poor business sense to charge less for fashion, she would be simply wasting time working for the lower wages. Now if a model is unable to earn enough shooting just nudes, or she would like to shoot other things also for her own enjoyment but is not being hired for these at her usual rate then lowering rates to capture this currently unexplored market makes perfect business sense.  

Saying it's not worth paying more for nudity may be your particular view of your own needs but does not in anyway describe the market. We could always run a poll and see how much photographers have spent on hiring models over the internet for entirely non-nude work and compare it to the amount that has been spent on hiring models for work involving nudity. I think if we were honest we would find that there would be more money going in to nude work, and yet less models doing nude work.


Neil Anderson is off-line
06 March 2014 09:52
stolenfaces
Photographer
stolenfaces
Location
United Kingdom
London
West London

Quote from andrew_gibbins
First of all, I never said I don't get the modelling. I am just trying to make an argument that models are not as badly off as they claim they are sometimes. Lets see if I can explain myself in a manner that is sufficient this time:

1) I never "compared" my wife's job with a model. I merely said that there are other professions where people spend the equal amount of time to get ready as a model do.

2) No, you can't really compare a webstore owner with a model, but lets compare a travelling salesman with one then. They travel all over the UK, sleep at hotels and all the other stuff, and work their asses off. No job security there either, but they do it nonetheless.

3) I am sorry for my "boobs and ass" terminology, but it was my english again that was a bit bad. What I meant was that when models find it in them to charge £50 for nudes and £15 for fashion and lingerie, something is wrong with their sense of this business. Their "nudity" is not worth paying extra £35 / hour for. There should be no difference between nudes and fashion to be honest. The difference would be there if they were to just be there to "hold a show", but thats not their job now is it? Their job is to provide a service which photographers like me need. And then charging different rates for different "skills" would be wrong.

4) I never said that modelling is not hard. Having been in this business a while, I know it for a fact. BUT, so it is to be a photographer. When a model shows up, with all the preparing, she does her job, and when finished, her part of that is over. A photographer has to edit, crop, fix and all other things with the images, not to mention working their asses off to sell them (unless they just do it for the fun of it, which imho spending £50 / hour is not a wise spending thing). And then we have all the bending, stretching and all other stuff we photographers do as well when shooting. And, as someone else said, our prices has been drastically reduced over the years as well.

Its a saturated business, and the UK has soooooooooooooo many models its almost beyond belief. One charge what they think they are worth, but one has to keep with the market too.



If you are trying to agree with Iain T, then you are not expressing yourself very well.
If you are disagreeing with him, then just say that, rather than all this generalized comments which suggest you think all 'models' on this site are simple commodities which are interchangeable.
If you think a 'model' is too expensive then don't book her.... pretty simple. If you want to discuss 'over-paid' people there are plenty of more interesting groups to discuss.
Whatever you think the going rate for experienced models like the OP is, it is not £15ph, so I can understand why she would find it insulting, probably more so than being pitched a TFP deal.

One reason that many people are not prepared to pay for clothed work, is that any decent photographer with a circle of friends doesn't need to use the internet to find pretty women who are prepared to model for fun..
Like any dealer he was watching for the card that is so high and wild he'll never need to deal another...



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