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Mark Duggan - Lawful killing

Tony Stephenson is off-line
13 January 2014 12:02
tonycsm
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tonycsm
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East Yorkshire
Driffield

Quote from Alan_Jay
The image you posted requires some context.  It certainly appears to me to have been posed.  The 'target's' right hand position/geture suggests this very strongly.  As such,  it no more indicates the level of police training than any other image involving firearms as a prop.

As to shooting clubs not allowing training,  well in the 45 years I've been involved with firearms,  I've never heard of the police using a civilian shooting club for training.  I do know, and have heard, of a large number who have police officers amongst their members.

Like probably everyone on this forum,  I do not have detailed, first hand knowledge of the quality of training in the UK vs the rest of the world.  From the little knowledge I do have,  I would suggest that we do have one of the best trained armed police in the world.  Likewise that they deserve the enviable reputation that they have.



Alan..I don't know to which firearms clubs you belong but if someone pointed a gun at someone else in the same manner as in tyhe photograph at my club, the other person would probably wrap the gun around their neck!

The first rule of gun ownership or handling is that you NEVER point a firearm, even unloaded, at anyone...simple! The only exception would be in a combat zone and then you point the weapon in the general direction of the enemy - not at anyone on your side!

As for the image being staged/posed...what possible motive would the photographer have for staging the shot in that manner unless it was to show how not to handle a firearm?

As for being the best trained in the world - that may or may not be true but there is a big difference between training and individual officers putting that training into action during incidents! The training certainly didn't prevent the unneccessary deaths of James Ashley, Azelle Rodney, Harry Stanley, Jean Charles de Menezes et al...all shot by supposedly well trained firearms officers who got it wrong!



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Paul Hodson is off-line
13 January 2014 12:15
mph
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mph
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Cheshire
Crewe

Quote from tonycsm

As for the image being staged/posed...what possible motive would the photographer have for staging the shot in that manner unless it was to show how not to handle a firearm?




It could have been that - or their first day and the shot (sorry!) was taken to make the point!

Quote from tonycsm

As for being the best trained in the world - that may or may not be true but there is a big difference between training and individual officers putting that training into action during incidents! The training certainly didn't prevent the unneccessary deaths of James Ashley, Azelle Rodney, Harry Stanley, Jean Charles de Menezes et al...all shot by supposedly well trained firearms officers who got it wrong!




Pretty well executed (sorry again!) shootings actually. Yes - they were the wrong targets but you can't get everything correct.   In fairness the  de Menezes killing was probably the result of poor intelligence rather than poor control of the guns.
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Beaverray is off-lineSilver Member
13 January 2014 12:35
beaverray
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beaverray
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And poor communication in that their airwaves radios didn't work below ground so vital information could not be relayed......


Iain Thomson is off-linePlatinum Member
13 January 2014 12:43
IainT
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IainT
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Bedfordshire


Quote from tonycsm
Alan..I don't know to which firearms clubs you belong but if someone pointed a gun at someone else in the same manner as in tyhe photograph at my club, the other person would probably wrap the gun around their neck!

The first rule of gun ownership or handling is that you NEVER point a firearm, even unloaded, at anyone...simple! The only exception would be in a combat zone and then you point the weapon in the general direction of the enemy - not at anyone on your side!

As for the image being staged/posed...what possible motive would the photographer have for staging the shot in that manner unless it was to show how not to handle a firearm?

As for being the best trained in the world - that may or may not be true but there is a big difference between training and individual officers putting that training into action during incidents! The training certainly didn't prevent the unneccessary deaths of James Ashley, Azelle Rodney, Harry Stanley, Jean Charles de Menezes et al...all shot by supposedly well trained firearms officers who got it wrong!




Yes, its the first thing my father ever taught me about a gun...don't point it at anyone...ever!

And its the rule by which any responsible gun owner lives by.

But its a bit different for firearms units who regularly point guns at each other during training and indeed fire blanks at each other.

I don't know about or cannot comment on the images, who know's the context or circumstances?, but you are right that it does not leave a good impression. Although do bare in mind, Police humour and high jinx out of the public eye is something most civilians never see or would understand.

Of course there have been accidents in the past and there will be unfortunate deaths in the future, its inevitable, because human error will never be erradicated completely...its not possible. But the standard of Police Firearms training is much better than even 20 years ago, when it was to a high standard and chalk and cheese compared to 40 years ago when it was non-existant and ridiculious and completely avoidable incidents like Cherry Gross, for instance occured.
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Tony Stephenson is off-line
14 January 2014 04:51
tonycsm
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tonycsm
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East Yorkshire
Driffield

Quote from mph
 In fairness the  de Menezes killing was probably the result of poor intelligence rather than poor control of the guns.



Probably very true and I wouldn't argue with you  but as a result of this 'poor intelligence', someone who was completely innocent lost their life and yet no one has ever faced the music for getting it wrong. 

www.le-femme.co.uk


Iain Thomson is off-linePlatinum Member
14 January 2014 05:19
IainT
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IainT
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Bedfordshire


Quote from tonycsm
Probably very true and I wouldn't argue with you  but as a result of this 'poor intelligence', someone who was completely innocent lost their life and yet no one has ever faced the music for getting it wrong. 




Thats because the mistakes were made at the top and the government can't afford any public scrutiny of the inteligence services and they can't afford to make a scapegoat of the armed Police Officers involved because of the fallout...although if they could have, you can bet they would have offered up some of the troops on the ground as sacrifice.
I tend to be a modest man, but then I do have a lot to be modest about.


Alan Johnson is off-line
14 January 2014 06:24
Alan_Jay
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Quote from tonycsm
Alan..I don't know to which firearms clubs you belong but if someone pointed a gun at someone else in the same manner as in tyhe photograph at my club, the other person would probably wrap the gun around their neck!


I don't think I mantioned anything about guns being pointed at people in a gun club.  I did say that I know of several clubs who have police officers as members.

Quote
The first rule of gun ownership or handling is that you NEVER point a firearm, even unloaded, at anyone...simple!


True.
QuoteThe only exception would be in a combat zone and then you point the weapon in the general direction of the enemy - not at anyone on your side!


Not at all true.  There are a number of valid reasons for pointing a firearm at someone.  This is something that police the world over do, correctly, when dealing with an armed criminal etc.  I suspect that you have never been in combat.  There are many occasions when you point a loaded firearm at people,  directly at people, in such circumstances.  
In a combat situation, whether that be military or police, the rules are, by necessity, very different to target or game shooting rules!

QuoteAs for the image being staged/posed...what possible motive would the photographer have for staging the shot in that manner unless it was to show how not to handle a firearm?


As I do not know the photographer, or even the actual context in which the photo was taken, I cannot possibly know what the motive was.
What I can say, from personal experience, is that similar situations to that described in the image do happen very frequently in training exercises.  It is right and proper that they do so.  Firearms training, at least in the police and military,  is not just about safe handling and shooting at paper targets.

QuoteAs for being the best trained in the world - that may or may not be true but there is a big difference between training and individual officers putting that training into action during incidents! The training certainly didn't prevent the unneccessary deaths of James Ashley, Azelle Rodney, Harry Stanley, Jean Charles de Menezes et al...all shot by supposedly well trained firearms officers who got it wrong!



I'm not qualified to comment of any of those examples.  I do not have the pertinant facts.

I've known a great many people in my time, yet I can't think of a single one that has never made a mistake.  The only way to guarentee that a soldier or police officer NEVER  shoots someone by mistake,  is to not arm them.  That would be a situation that criminals would love,  but not be very good for the rest of us!
To give a little context to this,  whilst in the army,  I pointed a loaded rifle, with the safety off and my finger starting to squeeze the trigger, at a sniper.  Fortunately I didn't shoot, as the 'sniper' turned out to be a child pointing a bit of broom handle at me.
That doesn't make me any better than the soldiers or police officers that made a mistake and shot someone,  nor does it mean I was better trained.  It simply means that the circumstances were different.
If you have never been in that position,  it really is impossible to understand it.  I know that 5 minutes before it happened to me, that I certainly didn't!

When people talk of a 'split second decison',  it's something of a misnomer.  Frequently in these situations,  there is simply no time to make a decision,  all you can do is react.  and usually you react instinctively.  That's what all that training that doesn't adhere to the nice rules, is all about.
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Steve Guy is off-line
14 January 2014 09:42
Sdeve
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Derbyshire
Derby

To avoid confusion I should say that I don't know of any shooting club that wouldn't accept police officers as members. What I do know of is ranges that will not allow police firearms unity to practice there, and some that have had bad experiences, damage to the range by careless shots mainly. At least one range at Bisley is hired by the police for practice. Members of the public are excluded from entering the range for any reason while this practice is going on.

As far as the photograph is concerned, that was found on a computer belonging to a member of the firearms team that , around the same time, as the death due to negligence of several members of the team, of PC Terry. That picture is of police officers larking around with a firearm in circumstances that are unacceptable.


Moi is off-line
14 January 2014 10:13
clearview_photography
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clearview_photography
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County Durham
North East

Quote from Sdeve
To avoid confusion I should say that I don't know of any shooting club that wouldn't accept police officers as members. What I do know of is ranges that will not allow police firearms unity to practice there, and some that have had bad experiences, damage to the range by careless shots mainly. At least one range at Bisley is hired by the police for practice. Members of the public are excluded from entering the range for any reason while this practice is going on. As far as the photograph is concerned, that was found on a computer belonging to a member of the firearms team that , around the same time, as the death due to negligence of several members of the team, of PC Terry. That picture is of police officers larking around with a firearm in circumstances that are unacceptable.




Surely 'larking around' with a firearm is unacceptable in any circumstance

I'm not sure whether you, in all honesty, find the image to be outrageous or humourous 

http://i934.photobucket.com/albums/ad189/Sdeve/Humour/bumgun.jpg
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Steve Guy is off-line
14 January 2014 11:01
Sdeve
Photographer

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United Kingdom
Derbyshire
Derby

Quote from clearview_photography
Surely 'larking around' with a firearm is unacceptable in any circumstance

I'm not sure whether you, in all honesty, find the image to be outrageous or humourous 

http://i934.photobucket.com/albums/ad189/Sdeve/Humour/bumgun.jpg



OK, I'll type this as slowly and as clearly as I can. There is nothing humorous about that image. Their actions in posing for it are a disgrace. And yes, larking around, with a firearm is unacceptable in any circumstances which naturally means that I find their 'larking around' unacceptable. A slightly less than perfect use of English in the post you quote, for which I'll apologise because hadn't thought I'd be addressing the hard of thinking.



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