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Models,fees,work

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Spike is off-line
30 December 2013 19:22
Spike
Photographer
Spike
Location
United Kingdom
Hertfordshire
St Albans

Interesting to read the comments comments comparing models to those in "secure regular" jobs. The reality is they don't exist any more. I work with several high street & service industry companies & they all operate one a basis of 2 - 3 managment staff on full time 39 hour contracts, with the bulk of the staff being on 7 - 16 hour contracts with the option of overtime. Sick pay & benifits are fairly non existent & working bank holidays gets 1 1/2 times normal pay.
Supposedly employees rights have improved over the last 30 years, not from my recollection where sick pay was your normal rate & bank holidays paid triple time plus a day off in liue.
Bring back the bad old days
"Photoshop is there to cut diamonds, not polish turds"


Gerry is off-line
30 December 2013 21:27
Gerry99111
Photographer
Gerry99111
Location
United Kingdom
Surrey
Guildford

Secure - as in you have rights under Employment Legislation if you have been working for 2 years against constructive dismissal, discrimination and the like.

Secure in that your Employer will invest in your training unless they are really short sighted.

Anyway, this is one of those pointless threads. One male model has commented and all the others have felt it not necessary to comment on something that is pointless. The market is dictating models pay and conditions, not winging from some photographers who cannot get enough shoots on their terms.

Alternative income streams such as mainstream jobs and new ventures such as web cam work are depleting the available supply of better quality models. People who would be better quality models are not encouraged to become models because the pay differential is not sufficient to make the jump from something else they have that is secure enough. There is a gulf in quality now between internet modelling and agency standard suggesting to some if they don't make it as an agency model, better to find something else.

The internet model sites are starting to look like Readers Wives and bargain basement soft porn sites in both the standard of models and quality of photography.

Photographers with little experience or ability [even if they have been shooting something else for decades] feel they are entitled to TF and offering little value. New models are swamped by these people and only so many stick it out.

But hey ho, lets keep on trying to chip away at models pay so it is even lower so no one even remotely worth shooting will consider signing up. Then we will be forced to source our models from the agencies at twice or three times the cost.

If models pay was too high, it would be impossible for anyone to get shoots. The reality is that 1000's of shoots are occurring on a weekly basis with more photographers appearing to shoot them. Photographers are not in short supply and this will dictate models pay, not people arguing the toss on an internet forum.

I have set a modest budget for model shoots this year with the rest of the time being invested in TFP. I am in danger of under spending my budget because there are insufficient numbers of models with the right look at the moment I wish to book. I am not going to bother with agencies this year as the better ones are too controlling of the models work load and the cost would mean I could only shoot half the number.

Those that shoot any old crap with any random model I guess have an incentive to drive model pay even further down but I have noticed a significant drop in the number and quality of new models on sites such as this and no one here has disputed that. They just seem interested in trying to make comparisons with people in full time employment.

Really, if you think its too high, go and do something else or tell your stingy clients they need to put more money into the shoots. Everyday costs are rising and the economy for some people is getting better. Expecting others to drop their rates because of your own short comings is not going to happen
If you have to ask why I do it, you will never understand the reason why


Neil Anderson is off-line
30 December 2013 22:02
stolenfaces
Photographer
stolenfaces
Location
United Kingdom
London
West London

Comparisons with other jobs are pointless.

If you want to work with a model offer her what you can afford to pay her.
Telling her she is not worth what she asks, but you want to work with her at a lesser rate is not normally a way to get the best deal.

I have always found that apologies for only having a modest budget combined with some respect for the model's need to eat and pay the rent normally leads to satisfactory arragements being possible.

It may come as a surprise to some people but most models (particular real ones) will consider the type of person they are working for, and generally someone who seems relaxed and pleasant ( and maybe not too desperate to shoot with a particular model) will usually be able to negotiate the best price.
As in all walks of life, normal people don't give discounts to unpleasant customers, in fact the prospect of working with some of the people who clearly have no respect for the models they try to book would surely attract a surcharge to cover the stress and potential humiliation of such a booking.

Like any dealer he was watching for the card that is so high and wild he'll never need to deal another...


31 December 2013 20:48
JadedRed
Model


Quote from Spike
Interesting to read the comments comments comparing models to those in "secure regular" jobs. The reality is they don't exist any more. I work with several high street & service industry companies & they all operate one a basis of 2 - 3 managment staff on full time 39 hour contracts, with the bulk of the staff being on 7 - 16 hour contracts with the option of overtime. Sick pay & benifits are fairly non existent & working bank holidays gets 1 1/2 times normal pay.



7 hours guaranteed work a week without having to search for another job after each shift is more secure than modelling.

I've been screwed over more than once in low paying, regular work but the prize for being able to lose chunks of money in the process of working definitely goes to modelling.


Elaine  is off-lineSilver Member
01 January 2014 09:27
seeryder
Model
seeryder
Location
United Kingdom
West Yorkshire
Wakefield

As Iain said ,very few models do this for a living.
For amateur photographers it is also a hobby. Like being a football supporter. How much would it cost to go to see Manchester Utd ? About the same as hiring a good model for 3 hours?


TarMoo is off-line
01 January 2014 09:54
tarmoo
Photographer
tarmoo
Location
United Kingdom
Kent
Chatham

I haven't noticed a shortage of models I would like to shoot. Rates are about the same as a year ago. I shoot about 40 models a year and the typical rate is around £30/hr.

If you have shot some good models then it it a waste of time shooting "average" models on a TF basis if the resulting photos are not up to the standard of your existing work with the best models.
Q: How to make a small fortune from photography? A: Start with a large fortune.


Iain Thomson is off-linePlatinum Member
01 January 2014 13:27
IainT
Photographer
IainT
Location
United Kingdom
Bedfordshire


Quote from Gerry99111
The other thing that frequent shooters of glamour and adult must have realised is that a reasonable proportion of these models have discovered webcaming which pays significantly more than any internet modelling. Some of them I am sure only need to model to create a fan base to get punters onto their webcam work and will cut down on modelling putting an upward pressure on rates for some



Nearly all the high earners in the industry are webcam or late night television girls who rarely model...they are the type of girls who would have been models 5/6 years ago, but there is no money in it for them now.

I shot a popular TV girl a few weeks ago, we paid her a rate that most models can't even dream of. It was her first photoshoot outwith the channels own publicity shots in 2 years. What she got out of it was a high profile shoot which will help maintain her popularity on webcam which is becoming more important as TV wages fall, what I got out of it was exclussive and very saleable content.

But as she told me...although it was a high fee it was less than she earns in 2 TV shifts and the same as she was earning for *1 shift a couple of years ago...and on the TV or webcam she doesn't have to show the world her foo-foo.

A lot of the girls who would have been on these sites 5 years ago are choosing the TV/ webcam route....but

*TV chat wages are falling rapidly for all but the very top girls, webcamming will probably go the same way.

Nothing lasts forever...

The latest refuge for the best looking models who want high earnings are off-internet exclussive limited member paysites and private collector groups.
I tend to be a modest man, but then I do have a lot to be modest about.


Fizzy is off-line
03 January 2014 10:59
fizzy
Model
fizzy
Location
United Kingdom
Tyne and Wear
Newcastle upon Tyne

Eh, I charged £25ph and never really struggled to get work when I was actively seeking it and I'm not model beautiful at all. I doubt it's difficult for the many, many models who are younger and more attractive than me to get work at £30ph. I suspect a lot of the threads complaining about a dip in bookings are designed to attract traffic to the model's profile, thus generate more bookings.

I stopped because even when I was earning a lot, it wasn't worth it. Internet models are treated terribly in a lot of ways, and it was taking too much of a toll on my mental and physical health. If models aren't even being offered a liveable wage, then there's really no incentive at all for them to enter the industry.
Art nude model - £35ph


Paul Hodson is off-line
03 January 2014 12:34
mph
Photographer
mph
Location
United Kingdom
Cheshire
Crewe

Quote from fizzy
I stopped because even when I was earning a lot, it wasn't worth it. Internet models are treated terribly in a lot of ways, and it was taking too much of a toll on my mental and physical health.



Depressing and sad.
Amateur - happy to do TF with models with potential and enthusiasm. Website: www.mphodson.co.uk


EdT is off-line
03 January 2014 12:55
EdT
Photographer
EdT
Location
United Kingdom
Cambridgeshire


Quote from mph
Depressing and sad.




+1




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