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Models,fees,work

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G Jack B is off-line
30 December 2013 05:16
Plymjack
Photographer
Plymjack
Location
United Kingdom
Devon
Plymouth

Not wishing to quibble with anyone but the girl on the Makeup Counter earning £7 a hour has to be tax and NI from that - so to say a model should earn £x and then add on her tax and NI is not a balanced argument.

Happy New Year to All
Real Bread Cook by day, BTL landlord & IT Guru - who said men can't multitask!


Gerry is off-line
30 December 2013 06:55
Gerry99111
Photographer
Gerry99111
Location
United Kingdom
Surrey
Guildford

Not sure anyone did say that a model should add on tax and NI, it comes out of her gross payment.

What is fair to say is the girl on makeup earning £7 only pays employee tax and NI. Her Employer will pay the taxman direct for the extra Employer's NI contributions.

If you are self employed, there is no Employer and you have to pay a self employed rate so in reality you are comparing the models rate with a higher rate for the girl on the makeup counter to include Employers NI contributions
If you have to ask why I do it, you will never understand the reason why


Street Model is off-line
30 December 2013 07:15
StreetModel
Photographer
StreetModel
Location
United Kingdom
Essex
Upminster / All UK

Quote from Gerry99111
Not sure anyone did say that a model should add on tax and NI, it comes out of her gross payment. What is fair to say is the girl on makeup earning £7 only pays employee tax and NI. Her Employer will pay the taxman direct for the extra Employer's NI contributions. If you are self employed, there is no Employer and you have to pay a self employed rate so in reality you are comparing the models rate with a higher rate for the girl on the makeup counter to include Employers NI contributions



However, the model expects her expenses to be paid, and expects to get the going rate from day 1 - the make-up girl has to pay her own travel, lunch, parking etc and gets paid more with experience - some of the new girls coming on here are asking the same (if not moer) than the models who have been here for years...

It could be Lupus.... It is NEVER Lupus!!


Iain Thomson is off-linePlatinum Member
30 December 2013 07:32
IainT
Photographer
IainT
Location
United Kingdom
Bedfordshire


Ok...lets put it this way.

How many models do you know who rely entirely on photographic modelling who have a lifestyle which suggests they are earning more than a normal, living wage? Most, if the truth be told are in reality earning less per hour than they would working in a supermarket, even if the photographer is paying £25/£30 an hour.

Personally I can think of very few other than top European models. Most of the UK girls who earn decent money have sources of income other than internet photographic modelling.

The problem is that modelling rates are to low the result is the quality of model available is rapidly deteriorating because there is no incentive for high standard girls to come into modelling.

When I first started 8 years ago the better internet models were getting £40/£50 an hour for art nude level, and their main clientelle was amateurs, same as it is today. Even if things are tighter, the average amateur who can afford to pay £30 an hour could afford to pay £40/£50 an hour if that was the going rate

Its a self-propegating situation...the less people think they can get away with paying, the smaller the pool of good models becomes, at the moment there are far more "average girls who want to have their picture taken" than there are models and if rates continue to go south as costs go upwards, it will get to the stage that there are not even any average looking girls who want to get their photo taken left.
I tend to be a modest man, but then I do have a lot to be modest about.


Street Model is off-line
30 December 2013 07:44
StreetModel
Photographer
StreetModel
Location
United Kingdom
Essex
Upminster / All UK

I was with you, IainT, right up to the last paragraph. As a person who earns a living through photography (although not from model work), I class myself as one of the 'amateur photographers' on here. As such, the amount I have to spend on models has reduced overall, so it is not what I think I can get away with, but how much spare I have. It is going down, so the amount I spend goes down, so either the models charge less or I choose cheaper models.

There are models on here complaining about how their incomes have dropped over the last few years - well welcome to the club... When there was loads of money about, they were happy to take rich pickings at the top of the rates tree - now the pickings are slimmer, they have less income. I think that applies to most of us, and some people have no incomes at all now...
It could be Lupus.... It is NEVER Lupus!!


Iain Thomson is off-linePlatinum Member
30 December 2013 08:21
IainT
Photographer
IainT
Location
United Kingdom
Bedfordshire


Well yes, we all have to cope with reduced income in real terms. I am earning the same fees as I was 5 years ago whilst costs have risen, but I still have to pay the price for whatever I decide to spend my money on and if I want quality I have to pay for it.

Its the same with models, if you are so inclined, you can get any number of girls prepared to have their photo taken for little money or no fee, but they are not models in the real sense. If as a hobbiest you are happy with that or its all you can afford, then thats fine.

If you are a golfer you can play a municipal course for a few pounds, but if you want to play on a good course you have to pay a substancial fee. Its the same with fishing, there are loads of places you can can fish for free or for very little, but if you want to go to the best places you have to pay top fees.

If you want a skilled model you should be prepared to pay a reasonable fee (unless, obviously, you are of a standard whereby a proper model wants to trade with you)

The problem is many...or indeed most photographers, only see the fee, they fail to see what they are paying for. The "average" model charges say £25/£30 an hour, but really good models may be available for £30/£40 an hour. There is a world of difference between a good model and a girl who simply gets paid to reflect light...which is what the majority of girls standing in front of a camera do.

One of the problems is that a lot of photographers are "model collectors", they try and shoot as many different models as possible, producing the same old sh*t all the time (sorry if thats offensive, but look at the galleries and you'll see its true)just with a different girl. So, instead of carefully selecting a model who may charge £40 an hour but offer true value, they just decide, well I'll pay £30 an hour...whoever I can get within budget will do.

The solution is shoot less models, shoot better models and pay sensible fees.
I tend to be a modest man, but then I do have a lot to be modest about.


Gerry is off-line
30 December 2013 08:45
Gerry99111
Photographer
Gerry99111
Location
United Kingdom
Surrey
Guildford

This constant complaining by people equating modelling to some sales position working for some employer with long term prospects, security and benefits is completely pointless.

They are self employed people who are at the vagaries of the market on whether they earn enough to pay their weekly bills and with the exception of a very few is not a good living at all. For those who have their head screwed on properly, it can be a rewarding job but how many internet models can honestly say they have a reasonable income. In the main, they will only be modelling for a very few years but will live with the consequences of the photos for the rest of their days.

The models are not the problem, it is you if you cannot afford it. You have two choices, bite the bullet and pay or offer less and see how many will accept.

Forgetting for a moment those that cannot afford to pay or won't pay what the majority of models are asking for, those that have choices are finding it harder to find good quality models, particularly those that are new and likely to stay around. That tells me that far from being over paid, internet modelling is seen as a dirty, low paid pursuit and not something to put any future career at risk for.

I think the gulf between mainstream agency modelling and internet modelling has got greater and it is the low cost low mentality that is dragging it down
If you have to ask why I do it, you will never understand the reason why


Gerry is off-line
30 December 2013 08:50
Gerry99111
Photographer
Gerry99111
Location
United Kingdom
Surrey
Guildford

Quote from StreetModel
However, the model expects her expenses to be paid, and expects to get the going rate from day 1 - the make-up girl has to pay her own travel, lunch, parking etc and gets paid more with experience - some of the new girls coming on here are asking the same (if not moer) than the models who have been here for years...




What they ask and what people choose to pay are two different things and the model's earnings are a large part down to their look. A good photographer can get something useful out of an inexperienced model and most glamour publications seem to prefer fresh faces - they will sell more copies. That is what creates the opportunity for new models to get a reasonable rate if they are worth it.

If you value experienced models more, only book them, it may go to redressing this inbalance
If you have to ask why I do it, you will never understand the reason why


Gerry is off-line
30 December 2013 09:01
Gerry99111
Photographer
Gerry99111
Location
United Kingdom
Surrey
Guildford

The other thing that frequent shooters of glamour and adult must have realised is that a reasonable proportion of these models have discovered webcaming which pays significantly more than any internet modelling. Some of them I am sure only need to model to create a fan base to get punters onto their webcam work and will cut down on modelling putting an upward pressure on rates for some
If you have to ask why I do it, you will never understand the reason why


Chris Dee is off-line
30 December 2013 09:23
ChrisD
Photographer
ChrisD
Location
United Kingdom
Hampshire


Hello Iain, I often read your replies because you have real world experience and have a voice of reason, you talk sense. I rarely disagree with what you say, but regardless we all have an opinion and are entitled to share it aren't we. These are public forums after all.

I think there needs to be some distinction and separation here. The thread is based on professional models that are self employed and registered with HMRC. Not all models are in actual fact registered as self employed, that doesn't necessarily mean they are better or worse but those that are literally having to find their own work as a freelance model and are literally reliant totally upon their modelling income to pay the rent or the mortgage etc will no doubt struggle at times, and get lost amognst hundreds if not thousands of girls with "my rates are" who are not in that position at all.

I remember reading one of your postings where you stated that most internet models are worth paying about ten pounds an hour. Of course that was a generalisation and I knew where you were coming from but once again you made a valid point at the time you posted. To paraphrase you from above, there is a difference between a good model and a girl who simply gets paid to reflect light...which is what the majority of girls standing in front of a camera do. That stement is saying the same kind of thing, and you are of course right again.

I don't think a photographer will resent paying a fair fee to a professional model with genuine experience and skill sets, and like you say a lot are hobbyists and enthusiasts so of course they try to get a deal, but don't we all ?. Its all about shopping around and trying to get the best value for your money and paying as little as possible as well. We all tend to do that, its human nature. Anyone in business will try to make a profit, no point otherwise.

I know this is a can of worms, and always goes off topic and goes around in circles, brings up the TF debate etc. I just wish there was indeed a simple answer but there is not. There are also people out there that say, well if you don't like being a model/photographer find something else to do. If you are not getting any work or making enough money as a model/photographer go get another job. Maybe some will, or are trying to but cannot find another job ?, and that is one of my points. There is not a lot of jobs gong out there so half a loaf is better than none, and maybe thats why so many quote the girl on the cosmetics counter or someone flipping burgers or working as a cleaner ?

We are in tough economic times, I think "some" models are quite fortunate that there are seemingly so many out there that are still prepared to pay hourly fees like we see every day on all the sites like this one. Yes working models have maintenance costs, so do photographers, and I'd hasten to add that my guess is that the average guy that is expected to dip into his wallet is working long hours for single figure hourly rates before deductions, certainly after tax and n.i.

And @ Gerry99111 you make a good point too about web camming, so in a way taking that example, if a model cannot make enough or feels they need/want more they can for example web cam, thus making it less stressful and difficult for them to make ends meet and have to deal with flakes and no shows ( another bone of contention )

No doubt I'll be ripped apart for this but sometimes people like us state what others are really thinking. In closing I must add there are good models out there, they work hard, and they are worth paying. They know who they are, and like you say Iain sadly some photographers are paying the wrong ones, and that distorts perception. I'm starting to waffle but hopefully I've explained ok.



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