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Models,fees,work

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Adapt is off-line
28 December 2013 12:44
adapt
Photographer

Location
United Kingdom
Suffolk
Bury St Edmunds

Some models have said that they have not been getting any work...
I think that money is tight as many other photographers have said.
There will always be paid jobs for the explicit photos of models as there is a market for this which makes a lot of money,mags and paid websites.
For the more standard models who satisfy the keen photographers who just want to shoot nice photos,this is where the main problem lies, a few years ago their were many of these togs, but now far less, who want to commit large lumps of cash for one photoshoot which will not ever bring them any cash back.
Models have got used to 30/40/50 pounds an hour and in general these prices are just too high.
Think of the girl on the makeup counter who is earning £7 an hour and making money for the company employing her.
Do models really think they are worth 5 or 6 times this,when there isnt any markets for the photos,just the satisfaction the cameraman gets from seeing his latest shots, shot on his camera gear.
In the past I have paid models £120 an hour but this is when they are special in some way,a certain look or chosen by the client being exactly right for the commissioned shoot.All in all models should consider their rates very carefully..certainly photographers have too these days.


Iain Thomson is off-linePlatinum Member
28 December 2013 13:11
IainT
Photographer
IainT
Location
United Kingdom
Bedfordshire


For most models of any standard there has to be a line or a rate, below which they say its simply not worth while.

As it stands, modelling is so low paid there are very few new models of any standard at all entering the business.

I think if you are a full time model who is tax registerd, then probably around £30 an hour is about the bare minimum.

Anything less and you are probably earning below minimum wage. Bare in mind that charging a photographer £30 an hour is not the same as earning £30 an hour, all things taken into consideration )travel, expenses, tax, national insurance etc, £30 an hour probably equates to "real" earnings of more like £8 an hour.

I tend to be a modest man, but then I do have a lot to be modest about.


Tempus Fugit is off-lineSilver Member
28 December 2013 13:34
pinkbuildingphotography
Photographer
pinkbuildingphotography
Location
United Kingdom
Tayside


As with anything it depends on the market.

With prices depressed many people will stop working and then there will be a dearth of models.

Then the prices will increase until the market gets full again.

However the models that offer a quality service shall continue to get work.

Albeit this may not be at a rate that they like.

However models need to think along the lines that Iain has mentioned above.





Riding on the Gotterdammerung. Down and down she goes. Where she stops no one knows.


Tempus Fugit is off-lineSilver Member
28 December 2013 13:36
pinkbuildingphotography
Photographer
pinkbuildingphotography
Location
United Kingdom
Tayside


Quote from IainT
For most models of any standard there has to be a line or a rate, below which they say its simply not worth while. As it stands, modelling is so low paid there are very few new models of any standard at all entering the business. I think if you are a full time model who is tax registerd, then probably around £30 an hour is about the bare minimum. Anything less and you are probably earning below minimum wage. Bare in mind that charging a photographer £30 an hour is not the same as earning £30 an hour, all things taken into consideration )travel, expenses, tax, national insurance etc, £30 an hour probably equates to "real" earnings of more like £8 an hour.



Photographers need to be realistic about models costs and be willing to pay this.

The result will be a lack of quality models as Iain has said. 



Riding on the Gotterdammerung. Down and down she goes. Where she stops no one knows.


Gerry is off-line
28 December 2013 14:14
Gerry99111
Photographer
Gerry99111
Location
United Kingdom
Surrey
Guildford

Quote from IainT
For most models of any standard there has to be a line or a rate, below which they say its simply not worth while. As it stands, modelling is so low paid there are very few new models of any standard at all entering the business.
snip 



+1
The problem is not models over charging, those who do are easy to ignore.

There is a distinct lack of new superb looking and great potential models coming in.

I think it is a combination of:
  • a downward pressure on rates - it is just not worth risking future careers any more by getting your kit off
  • flooding of the market with wannabie models
  • too many chancer photographers who pounce on any newbie who looks half decent
Being told that if you have any potential you need to drop rates further will just accelerate internet modelling into the low cost low value market
If you have to ask why I do it, you will never understand the reason why


Claypaws is off-lineGold Member
28 December 2013 19:23
Claypaws
Photographer

Location
United Kingdom
North Yorkshire


Quote from IainT
Anything less and you are probably earning below minimum wage. Bare in mind that charging a photographer £30 an hour is not the same as earning £30 an hour, all things taken into consideration )travel, expenses, tax, national insurance etc, £30 an hour probably equates to "real" earnings of more like £8 an hour.



Normal jobs in industry, commerce, retail etc are also subject to tax and NI. Salaries and hourly rates are not quoted net of tax and NI. Travel and expenses are also incurred in normal work though models and photographers do have more onerous travel and expenses than those in many other jobs. Also bear in mind that travel and expenses can be offset against tax, which does not make them free of course, but at least you do not pay them out of taxed income.



Gerry is off-line
28 December 2013 19:34
Gerry99111
Photographer
Gerry99111
Location
United Kingdom
Surrey
Guildford

Normal jobs, you don't have to do your own marketing. There is also such things as Employers NI that is paid direct. In normal jobs, you get paid an annual salary and it is up to the company to keep you busy. If you cannot get enough bookings one month, you will be drastically in debt.

Its only a short term career for most models but they will live with the implications for the rest of their days. I am all for keeping costs down but I would rather see some more great quality models appearing but that seems less likely whilst everything is in free fall.

Supply and demand dictates everything so all this comparison with other jobs [like what job are you even equating it to] is all pretty immaterial. and if you screw the rates of pay so low that no one any way decent will consider modelling, you will be left with all those that most would rather not shoot
If you have to ask why I do it, you will never understand the reason why


Stu-Art UK is off-line
29 December 2013 07:00
stu_art
Photographer
stu_art
Location
United Kingdom
Dorset


It is a free market and models charge what they wish, if the market can withstand their fee, they will earn, if it can't, they won't!

As with all self-employed jobs, models like anyone else need to build into their rates, not just the shoot time, but costs of clothes, make-up, travel time etc. So if a two hour paid shoot requires travel time of an hour each way, plus an hour of prepartaion, and they charge £30.00 it is in fact only £60.00 for FIVE hours of 'time'. Plus within that £12.00 an hour there is a need for covering costs of 'materials' (clothes/make-up) and taxation.

Few will get to work every hour, every day, so probably need to earn sufficient from say 3-4 days work each week to live on!

The 'Studio Day' 8 x £40.00 looks good, but is probably only an opportunity for a few, perhaps once or twice a month if they migrate round the country (so incurring travel and accom costs).

Paying for models is why I am content to be a 'part-time' photographer, the day job earns me a decent living, which allows me to hire models (so allowing them a living too, which seems fair!).

Always curious how many photographers with day jobs, do 'free hours/days' for possible new employers, or those that promise to show case their work....
"Capture what you see, see what you captured"


Paul Hodson is off-line
29 December 2013 10:21
mph
Photographer
mph
Location
United Kingdom
Cheshire
Crewe

Quote from stu_art
It is a free market and models charge what they wish, if the market can withstand their fee, they will earn, if it can't, they won't! As with all self-employed jobs, models like anyone else need to build into their rates, not just the shoot time, but costs of clothes, make-up, travel time etc. So if a two hour paid shoot requires travel time of an hour each way, plus an hour of prepartaion, and they charge £30.00 it is in fact only £60.00 for FIVE hours of 'time'. Plus within that £12.00 an hour there is a need for covering costs of 'materials' (clothes/make-up) and taxation. Few will get to work every hour, every day, so probably need to earn sufficient from say 3-4 days work each week to live on!



Yes - the problem is not justifying the charge - it's justifying the cost to the photographer!
Amateur - happy to do TF with models with potential and enthusiasm. Website: www.mphodson.co.uk


Joel Hicks is off-line
29 December 2013 11:47
JoelHicks
Model
JoelHicks
Location
United Kingdom
Leicestershire


Speaking from the point of view of a model (and in contrast to 99% of the 'working' models on this site, a male one!) I think there are a few points which need to be made...

Sites such as these are, when considered, a rather unique entity within an industry... where professionals and amateurs (whatever those definitions might mean) tout for business, be it paid, part paid, syndication, TFP, or whatever...

As such, what one individual considers reasonable 'compensation' for their services may seem very unreasonable to another.

In the original post it was said: 'Some models have said that they have not been getting any work'...

Presumably, these are the models who secure their work through sites such as this, rather than through an agency. As a full-time male model, I don't secure ANY paid work through sites like this (and never have done) - freelance photographers simply won't book males (but that is a topic for another thread).

Clearly, money is tight as was stated, and this does obviously impact on the volume of work available and the market rates paid within the 'freelance' market. But ultimately, whether times are good or times are bad, if one party doesn't wish to pay a certain rate, or another party doesn't wish to work for less than a certain rate, then the shoot won't happen... and that is business, no matter what vocation we choose...

The original post then went on to mention the fact that: 'there will always be paid jobs for explicit photos of models, as there is a market for this which makes a lot of money... mags and paid websites'.

The point that I would make here is that the vast majority of people shooting such images on a site like this are NOT actually taking such shots for commercial gains - they do it because (without putting a finer point on it) they like to photograph sexualised images of beautiful girls (and that is entirely their prerogative). IainT (who has already posted in this thread) is an obvious exception - he advertises for work on this site for his commercial enterprises.

The original post then stated: 'for the more standard models who satisfy the keen photographers (who just want to shoot nice photos) this is where the main problem lies...'.

The point being made seems to be that these standard models have set high prices during the good times (quoted at £30-£50 per hour), but now that the economy has taken a down turn, they haven't brought their rates down in accordance... and that they should have done.

What I would say is this... The term 'nice photos' doesn't give any indication as to the 'level' being shot, and I have seen some horrendously low rates for adult level work on this site and others over the years.

Furthermore, if you tried to cut the 'girl on the makeup counters' salary by 10% there would be uproar... but if you are seriously asking the model to do the same, are you really going to argue over £3 for an £30 an hour booking? If you're talking about cutting a models rate by more than 10% (which I doubt any union in the country would agree to!) what would the drop be?... 20%, 30%... 50%? I ask if anyone else out there would do that with their job?

Points have already been made in this thread about the short career span of a model, the 'costs' of being a freelance model, and the fact that they won't work every day (or every hour within a booked day)... so I won't repeat those comments, but it also has to be considered that modelling (nude, adult, sexualised) has huge implications on future careers... Many of the models on this site don't probably realise that, say, if they wanted to work with children in the future, or within a 'profession', they are in all probability barred from doing so (and I say that both as a former teacher and qualified barrister!).

I guess the bottom line is that if the casting is 'just for the satisfaction that the cameraman gets from seeing his latest shots, shot on his camera gear' then the photographer must either bow to the demands of the model who he wishes to book (who is shooting to earn a living, and risking far more), select a cheaper model, or shoot models who are prepared to work for TFP.

I would also add that if a photographer isn't happy with the rates being quoted by the girls on these freelance sites, then they could always approach an agency for a model - especially if it is 'commissioned work by a client'... but you and I both know, if you do that, you're going to be paying a whole lot more than what even the most expensive freelance girls charge.

The issue of fees is always a controversial one... but as I have said, it really is quite simple... if you believe that an individuals rate is too expensive, then book a cheaper alternative. As has been noted, there is a plethora of young girls swooning into this industry, and that's because of sites like this, the lack of a need for agency representation, and the proliferation of cheap cameras...

My only other advice would be... photograph a guy! (And that's to everyone out there!)




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