Reminder Secure

Nelson Mandela

06 December 2013 17:59
silverk
Photographer


Quote from Socialdisaster
The last line of this is the most important thing to know about NM:

http://thebackbencher.co.uk/3-things-you-didnt-want-to-know-about-nelson-mandela/

"The real tragedy is that too many in the West can’t bring themselves to see what the great man himself has said all along; that he’s just as flawed as the rest of us, and should not be put on a pedestal."



Which is what my first observation was all about, the pontification of a man who was a lot more honest than the people reporting on him!


Tony Stephenson is off-line
06 December 2013 19:37
tonycsm
Photographer
tonycsm
Location
United Kingdom
East Yorkshire
Driffield

Quote from stolenfaces
Ah well, Thatcher and Reagan must have been right to support the apartheid regime then (because the ANC was supported by USSR). Do you expect anyone to believe your figures when you can't be bothered to quote the source for your numbers or any definitions. I'm sure Mr Free Thinker wouldn't dream of believing them or drawing any conclusions based on such sloppy science. What's your definition of 'politically motovated [sic] murders', does it include those killed by the police or by the state with the gallows ? And in the context of the apartheid regime your definition of 'Black' would be quite relevant.



First of all, I replied to a poster asking for info about the ANC - I didn't mention the fact that they were a Communist outfit.

If you understood not only the politics but also the strategic importance of South Africa and the importance it played in surrounding Southern African countries plus the Soviet intentions at the time, then I might be tempted to debate the issue with you but you'll have to excuse me on this occasion if I don't engage in a battle of wits with you as I don't engage with those who are unarmed!

As for the figures I gave, try looking them up - they're freely available on the internet, which is where I found them! Just to reiterate what I said earlier, the majority of politically motivated murders in South Africa were black on black and yes, the ANC was a violent Communist supported terrorist group and Nelson Mandela's wife Winnie was a corrupt and violent now discredited political leader of the ANC who promoted the 'necklacing' of anyone politically opposed to the ANC.


www.le-femme.co.uk


Frank Sinnott is off-line
06 December 2013 23:12
frankpht
Photographer
frankpht
Location
United Kingdom
London


Quote from silverk
Which is what my first observation was all about, the pontification of a man who was a lot more honest than the people reporting on him!




I pointed out to someone on FB a month or so back while he was dying.  Where some people were saying how great a peace maker he is.  That he did advocate armed resistance.  Yet I added who the ***k could blame him.  You in your first post never mentioned what the press were saying.  If you had said you understood why he had to do what he had to do.  I would not be arguing with you.  The TV have been running clips of his lifes history  and included in those clips is him talking about the armed resistance. 
How people perceive his past is their choice.  If you want to dwell on it without acknowledging or understanding the need for their resistance.  Then that's your choice I'm just tired of your attempts to fish your way out of you own arse hole.


EdT is off-line
07 December 2013 04:57
EdT
Photographer
EdT
Location
United Kingdom
Cambridgeshire


Quote from tonycsm
Here's a few facts....

Around double the amount of politically motovated murders allegedly committed by the whites on blacks, are attributable to black on black violence during those times since 1948 to 1994 ( 21,000 total deaths) 14,000 of these total killings between 1990 and 1994.

Check out the 'necklace' executions carried out by ANC supporters...in the words of Winnie Mandela ..." With our boxes of matches and our necklaces, we shall liberate this country!"




There were 21,000 victims giving evidence (about 28,000 victims of abuse were identified), not 21,000 deaths. These included abductions, torture, rape, etc... The Truth and Reconcillialtion Commission found that the majority of killings were committed by the Inkatha Freedom Party, followed by the South African Police. The majority of tortures (included in the victim count) were carried out by the SAP.

Oh, and the report says there were 71 cases of necklacing.

Quote from Volume 3 of the Truth and Reconcilliation Commission report (Page 6)
The large number of deaths by burning is mainly a consequence of the number of arson attacks. Note that burning does not include what was known as ‘necklacing’. Necklacing was categorised separately from burning, and was the tenth most common cause of death, at seventy-one instances.




Tony Stephenson is off-line
07 December 2013 08:02
tonycsm
Photographer
tonycsm
Location
United Kingdom
East Yorkshire
Driffield

Quote from EdT


; font-family: Tahoma, Arial, Verdana; font-size: 14.399999618530273px; font-style: italic;" width="20" />; font-family: Tahoma, Arial, Verdana; font-size: 14.399999618530273px; font-style: italic;">Quote; font-family: Tahoma, Arial, Verdana; font-size: 14.399999618530273px; font-style: italic;"> from Volume 3 of the Truth and Reconcilliation Commission report (Page 6)
; font-family: Tahoma, Arial, Verdana; font-size: 14.399999618530273px; font-style: italic;" /> ; font-family: Tahoma, Arial, Verdana; font-size: 14.399999618530273px; font-style: italic;">The large number of deaths by burning is mainly a consequence of the number of arson attacks. Note that burning does not include what was known as ‘necklacing’. Necklacing was categorised separately from burning, and was the tenth most common cause of death, at seventy-one instances.



You're not seriously quoting those figures are you?

Try researching the facts gleaned from those who actually lived through the period and that includes both black and white people and not what T&RC would have you believe!
www.le-femme.co.uk


EdT is off-line
07 December 2013 08:49
EdT
Photographer
EdT
Location
United Kingdom
Cambridgeshire


Quote from tonycsm
You're not seriously quoting those figures are you?



Try researching the facts gleaned from those who actually lived through the period and that includes both black and white people and not what T&RC would have you believe!



Sorry, my figure for necklacing is corrected elsewhere in the report. Nearer 700. But yes, I would prefer to believe an independent report (which makes very uncomfortable reading for all sides) than anecdotal evidence. I know several people who returned from SA after the turn of the century who say it is a pretty good reflection of what hapopened there.

Try reading the report maybe?


Tony Stephenson is off-line
07 December 2013 10:11
tonycsm
Photographer
tonycsm
Location
United Kingdom
East Yorkshire
Driffield

Quote from EdT
Sorry, my figure for necklacing is corrected elsewhere in the report. Nearer 700. But yes, I would prefer to believe an independent report (which makes very uncomfortable reading for all sides) than anecdotal evidence. I know several people who returned from SA after the turn of the century who say it is a pretty good reflection of what hapopened there. Try reading the report maybe?



The problem is that there are 'official' sanitised versions of what happened purely for public consumption in an attempt to put everything behind and start afresh.

Undoubtedly it was a shameful period in South Aftrica's history - unfortunately, looking at what is happening today, the killings, repressions, violence and corruption have still not ceased and S A is still a country in a state of great instability as we speak which will only lead to more of the same and SA could well end up the same as Zimbabwe.

www.le-femme.co.uk


Chris is off-line
07 December 2013 10:34
CCP
Photographer
CCP
Location
United Kingdom
Essex
Near East London

Quote from Kiboko
I watched an Arnie Schwarzenegger film the other night called Collateral Damage. The film started with Arnie's wife and child waiting for him outside a restaurant, when a terrorist bomb exploded, killing them both. The perpetrator was a Colombian attempting to persuade the Americans to leave his country. I don't believe that certain types of violence, eg. terrorist bombings which kill indiscriminately, are justified in any circumstances, because innocent people including women and children also become victims. I have a vague recollection of my parents discussing bombs going off in S. Africa on the News all those years ago, - can anyone tell me whether the ANC resorted to this type of action or was it solely agitation, demonstration, and/or political assassinations? And whether or not N.M. was responsible or personally involved?




Well it is quite well known that his then wife, Winnie and members of her so called "football team" were put on trial for atrocities such as the torture and murder of 14 year old Stompie Moeketsi, among others. Although she claimed she wasn't there at the killing, is widely believed that she not only ordered the killing but was there while he was tortured and murdered. Who knows the full truth, only those involved I suppose. Then there is the other atrocity which was often inflicted on people in which they (the ANC) executed people by placing a tire around the necks of their victims and setting fire to it. If I remember it right, Winnie actually endorsed it or at least defended it.

So they're not the angels some people would have us believe, but they were at war, and I think Nelson Mandela lost control of the ANC once he was in prison. That'll be when Winnie took control I think. I'm not sure, but I think Winnie was actually convicted of the child murder, but basically was allowed to get away with. You can Google it and check the facts, now doubt correct me where I might be wrong. It was a long time ago.




Chris is off-line
07 December 2013 10:45
CCP
Photographer
CCP
Location
United Kingdom
Essex
Near East London

Quote from tonycsm
The problem is that there are 'official' sanitised versions of what happened purely for public consumption in an attempt to put everything behind and start afresh.

Undoubtedly it was a shameful period in South Aftrica's history - unfortunately, looking at what is happening today, the killings, repressions, violence and corruption have still not ceased and S A is still a country in a state of great instability as we speak which will only lead to more of the same and SA could well end up the same as Zimbabwe.


 

Yes, if I We're a white south African I would make plans to leave. Winnie has been seen at rallys with people wearing t-shirts saying 'one bullet for one white settler' and the chap who's running the country at the moment (can't remember his name) has been seen dancing around with others singing songs about killing white people, not that long ago. So yes, I think it will go the same way as Zimbabwe.





Chris is off-line
07 December 2013 10:52
CCP
Photographer
CCP
Location
United Kingdom
Essex
Near East London

By the way. How do you turn off auto spell on a tablet, it's sending me around the bend! 



24 Users currently online   Blue=Models Orange=Photographers Red=Agencies Purple=MUA/Stylists Grey=Studios Green=Moderators
Baileysandcream cariettaxoxo chloejade25 rob452
Cheshunt83 cliffc dby47 dwhphotography Edenbailey Ianmcculloch iestyn JohnDentonPhoto lfc9_uk mantisphoto Mark_Anthony Paul_Jones photostevo redbaron stevegosh Steveh32 Stewart1988 Thunder_Photos tms Willjamieson