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Nelson Mandela

06 December 2013 14:17
silverk
Photographer


Quote from frankpht
silverk

What either of those events have to do with my initial statement is beyond me, had you read my post thoroughly you would have seen that I acknowledged his contribution to modern day SA but was expressing MY opinion that news reporting was glossing over some of his past ergo making him saintlier than he actually was! [/



We've lost a great man yet we still have the likes of you.  There's simply no justice.  Just ask yourself if Hitler had managed to invade this country.  Would you then regard the freedom fighters that would have followed as murderers.  Would you describe the French resistance as muderers.   Would you desribe de Valera as a muderer.   If you can say the whites in South Africa  had the right to be in power and surpress the indigenous people.  Then you have a case alas it is clear to me you have not.   No one doubts Mandela the freedom fighter without understanding what little choice he and every South African had to fight against the injustice of white rule.  Peaceful protest was never an option.   A giant has died but little people like you well Mandela would forgive you.  I just wished you used your head.



Thank you for your comments, I do not need anyone to forgive me. To use a different example when Martin McGuiness and Gerry Adams die will you be celebrating there brilliance, in their eyes the actions they have taken were justified. Is that not what you are suggesting. Do we just turn a blind eye because it suits us?

Twice now I have reiterated that I have nothing against Mandela or what he achieved after his release, its the hypocrisy by the reporters that Im bothered with. If not being filled with an overwhelming sense of loss and gushiness makes me a little person, if looking at the whole story and not selected parts because that makes for a better fairytale, makes me a little person then I am proud to be that little person. That head that you say I wasn't using is the same head that enables me to free think, to make my own mind up and not be bowed by popular opinion. Ironically one of the skills admired in the late Mandela.


Tony Stephenson is off-line
06 December 2013 14:51
tonycsm
Photographer
tonycsm
Location
United Kingdom
East Yorkshire
Driffield

Quote from Kiboko
, - can anyone tell me whether the ANC resorted to this type of action or was it solely agitation, demonstration, and/or political assassinations? And whether or not N.M. was responsible or personally involved?



Here's a few facts....
Around double the amount of politically motovated murders allegedly committed by the whites on blacks, are attributable to black on black violence during those times since 1948 to 1994 ( 21,000 total deaths) 14,000 of these total killings between 1990 and 1994.

Check out the 'necklace' executions carried out by ANC supporters...in the words of Winnie Mandela ..." With our boxes of matches and our necklaces, we shall liberate this country!"

www.le-femme.co.uk


Frank Sinnott is off-line
06 December 2013 15:26
frankpht
Photographer
frankpht
Location
United Kingdom
London


Quote from silverk
Thank you for your comments, I do not need anyone to forgive me. To use a different example when Martin McGuiness and Gerry Adams die will you be celebrating there brilliance, in their eyes the actions they have taken were justified. Is that not what you are suggesting. Do we just turn a blind eye because it suits us? Twice now I have reiterated that I have nothing against Mandela or what he achieved after his release, its the hypocrisy by the reporters that Im bothered with. If not being filled with an overwhelming sense of loss and gushiness makes me a little person, if looking at the whole story and not selected parts because that makes for a better fairytale, makes me a little person then I am proud to be that little person. That head that you say I wasn't using is the same head that enables me to free think, to make my own mind up and not be bowed by popular opinion. Ironically one of the skills admired in the late Mandela.





You say you're looking at the whole story.  Are you really then by your stance on Mandela's history.  Why not say the same thing about Churchill a man who fought for freedom.  This man did he have the right to declare war on Germany.   What did Hitler's european expansion have to do with Britain.  America didn't want to know yet Churchill thought no this herr Hitler is wrong and needs to be stopped.  Thus sending thousands of soliders to a certain death in the cause of liberty and freedom.   By what route do you think Mandela should have taken in order to secure the rightful owners of SA.   Their own country and freedom.   

Northern Ireland are you going to tell me the catholics in their own country occupied by Britain were not suffering great injustices.  I am Southern Irish and never a supporter of the violence.   I do believe in a united Ireland if only because Britain invaded the country.  Southern Ireland fought and won their freedom at the cost of Northern Ireland.  Armed struggle was the only way that freedom was won.  Thus people once regarded as terrorists begame the political leaders.  I am happy to say that most Irish people have no ill feelings against the British.  History is a cruel beast and Northern Ireland a sad victim.   Now we have McGuiness and Adams as political leaders and NI is thankfully and I hope forever it remains so a peaceful place.  Will I be dancing and celebrating them after they are gone no.  
In no way what so ever.  I will understand  their reasons for their cause as I will understand any oppressed peoples actions in a fight for freedom.   In Northern Ireland today people that have lost so greatly on all sides.  Have found a peace through reconciliation fragile as it is.  I hope it lasts no matter what flag is flying. 

You I would very much doubt be admired by Mandela for your ability to think.  Freedom comes at great cost and freedom should never be denied.   It would seem you would be happy to deny all oppressed people theirs. 




Neil Anderson is off-line
06 December 2013 15:29
stolenfaces
Photographer
stolenfaces
Location
United Kingdom
London
West London

Quote from tonycsm
Here's a few facts....

Around double the amount of politically motovated murders allegedly committed by the whites on blacks, are attributable to black on black violence during those times since 1948 to 1994 ( 21,000 total deaths) 14,000 of these total killings between 1990 and 1994.



Check out the 'necklace' executions carried out by ANC supporters...in the words of Winnie Mandela ..." With our boxes of matches and our necklaces, we shall liberate this country!"






Ah well, Thatcher and Reagan must have been right to support the apartheid regime then (because the ANC was supported by USSR).
Do you expect anyone to believe your figures when you can't be bothered to quote the source for your numbers or any definitions.

I'm sure Mr Free Thinker wouldn't dream of believing them or drawing any conclusions based on such sloppy science.
What's your definition of 'politically motovated [sic] murders', does it include those killed by the police or by the state with the gallows ? And in the context of the apartheid regime your definition of 'Black' would be quite relevant.
Like any dealer he was watching for the card that is so high and wild he'll never need to deal another...


06 December 2013 16:11
silverk
Photographer


Quote from frankpht
You say you're looking at the whole story.  Are you really then by your stance on Mandela's history.  

You I would very much doubt be admired by Mandela for your ability to think.  Freedom comes at great cost and freedom should never be denied.   It would seem you would be happy to deny all oppressed people theirs. 




Point 1: Mandela is on record admitting that the only way to achieve the goal was by non peaceful means, also that he was the Commander of the ANC military wing so not sure how my "stance on Mandela's history" has been abbreviated or selective.

Point 2: I never said I support oppressed people being denied their freedom, in fact I never even mentioned oppressed people so not sure why my having a mind of my own is being called into question! Additionally I served 17 years in the forces during the Falklands and 1st Gulf war ensuring peoples freedoms.

FOR THE THIRD TIME, I HAVE ALREADY PAID HOMAGE TO MANDELA AND RECOGNISE HIS CONTRIBUTION TO MODERN SA! My comments were based on the hypocrisy of the reporting. The saying "everyone loves you when you're dead" has never been more apt if we just gloss over his actions. By all means praise him for his achievements, I take nothing away from HIM but he also had a dark side which is being ignored during his glorification.


EdT is off-line
06 December 2013 16:26
EdT
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EdT
Location
United Kingdom
Cambridgeshire


Quote from silverk


Thank you for your comments, I do not need anyone to forgive me. To use a different example when Martin McGuiness and Gerry Adams die will you be celebrating there brilliance, in their eyes the actions they have taken were justified. Is that not what you are suggesting. Do we just turn a blind eye because it suits us?

Twice now I have reiterated that I have nothing against Mandela or what he achieved after his release, its the hypocrisy by the reporters that Im bothered with. If not being filled with an overwhelming sense of loss and gushiness makes me a little person, if looking at the whole story and not selected parts because that makes for a better fairytale, makes me a little person then I am proud to be that little person. That head that you say I wasn't using is the same head that enables me to free think, to make my own mind up and not be bowed by popular opinion. Ironically one of the skills admired in the late Mandela.




The comparison between Mandela and McGuiness/Adams is really not applicable. In Ulster there was universal suffrage, people had a say in their own destiny. In the case of South Africa the majority of the population had no right to vote, no say in their own destiny.
They tried peaceful protest in Sharpville in 1960 and the police opened fire on them. Can you really see any other option open to the ANC? If the Jews in Germany had taken up arms to defend themselves in 1938, would you criticise them?


Neil Anderson is off-line
06 December 2013 17:13
stolenfaces
Photographer
stolenfaces
Location
United Kingdom
London
West London

The more interesting discussions surround the question:
"How on earth did apartheid endure so long, younger viewers may be wondering, considering everyone who was anyone seems to have been on Mandela's side?"
as asked and answered by Marina Hyde in the Guardian.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/06/follow-nelson-mandela-laugh-rightwing-fawning

Like any dealer he was watching for the card that is so high and wild he'll never need to deal another...


Neil Anderson is off-line
06 December 2013 17:29
stolenfaces
Photographer
stolenfaces
Location
United Kingdom
London
West London

Quote from silverk


Point 1: Mandela is on record admitting that the only way to achieve the goal was by non peaceful means, also that he was the Commander of the ANC military wing so not sure how my "stance on Mandela's history" has been abbreviated or selective.

Point 2: I never said I support oppressed people being denied their freedom, in fact I never even mentioned oppressed people so not sure why my having a mind of my own is being called into question! Additionally I served 17 years in the forces during the Falklands and 1st Gulf war ensuring peoples freedoms.

FOR THE THIRD TIME, I HAVE ALREADY PAID HOMAGE TO MANDELA AND RECOGNISE HIS CONTRIBUTION TO MODERN SA! My comments were based on the hypocrisy of the reporting. The saying "everyone loves you when you're dead" has never been more apt if we just gloss over his actions. By all means praise him for his achievements, I take nothing away from HIM but he also had a dark side which is being ignored during his glorification.



Your thinking may be Free but it also seems to be rather muddy. Are you saying that your own service in the forces was something dirty to be glossed over. Surely if your service in the armed forces was ensuring people's freedom then people rising up to defend their own freedom is just as (if not more) acceptable.
You seem to be basing your comments on some out-moded system of belief which deems the oppressors in South Africa as innocent civilians.
Those innocent white civilians in South Africa were the people that voted in the oppressive regime and were more responsible for the lack of self-determination and freedom for Black and Liberal South Africans than the Argentinian or Iraqi conscripts who made up the majority of Forces that you would have been opposing in the Gulf War or Falklands had in the decision to invade those territories.
Like any dealer he was watching for the card that is so high and wild he'll never need to deal another...


06 December 2013 17:39
Socialdisaster
Photographer


The last line of this is the most important thing to know about NM:

http://thebackbencher.co.uk/3-things-you-didnt-want-to-know-about-nelson-mandela/

"The real tragedy is that too many in the West can’t bring themselves to see what the great man himself has said all along; that he’s just as flawed as the rest of us, and should not be put on a pedestal."
Modesty is just arrogance in stealth mode


06 December 2013 17:54
silverk
Photographer


Quote from stolenfaces


Your thinking may be Free but it also seems to be rather muddy. Are you saying that your own service in the forces was something dirty to be glossed over. Surely if your service in the armed forces was ensuring people's freedom then people rising up to defend their own freedom is just as (if not more) acceptable.
You seem to be basing your comments on some out-moded system of belief which deems the oppressors in South Africa as innocent civilians.
Those innocent white civilians in South Africa were the people that voted in the oppressive regime and were more responsible for the lack of self-determination and freedom for Black and Liberal South Africans than the Argentinian or Iraqi conscripts who made up the majority of Forces that you would have been opposing in the Gulf War or Falklands had in the decision to invade those territories.



I understand why your nickname in the forums is "sullen faeces". I am proud of my service and I find it most offensive that a troll like you, whose only meaning in life based on your input on here, is to try and be derogatory to anyone and everything.

Yet again in your pursuit of being a complete and utter twat you failed to read not only my last post but also my first. You are addressing everything that I have not mentioned and despite using my last posting as a reference you entirely missed the point being made, that of glossing over certain areas of his past. Incidentally, if he was such an all singing bloke why was the ANC only taken off the US terrorist watch 5 years ago?



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