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Why do photographers pay expenses?

Peter Blanchflower is off-line
14 October 2013 13:06
blancho
Photographer
blancho
Location
United Kingdom
West Midlands
Solihull

Why are photographers expected to pay expenses on a time for shoot. Travel, locations, Mua etc?

Traditionally photographers pay expenses as they often act as the art director arranging everything or they are the person who takes the end payment from the client so therefore pay for everything. However on a time for shoot where the images are not being sold the shoot should be considered equal therefore expenses split.

If one person is half doing the other a favour then maybe they should pay more, ie. an amateur working with a professional. However I often find amateurs with no experience often ask me the professional to pay expenses.

I also find people often misunderstand time for. It's dead simple in my mind if both people are getting something out of the shoot that makes it worth while and both people pay.


Chrissie Red is off-line
14 October 2013 13:21
Chrissie_Red
Model
Chrissie_Red
Location
United Kingdom
Tayside
Perthshire



There are a few different way of looking at this..


I have paid for studio costs (as a model) in the past - and a makeup artist - so it's not always "PHOTOGRAPHER PAYS EVERYTHING" - the majority of photographers are older and do have decent enough jobs (I don't know many models straight out of college who can invest hundreds/thousands into a hobby).

I have never asked for travel expenses EVER. If I'm working local then most of my shoots are full day or at least half day so I just pay my own way.

There is another way of looking at it here - Photographer is in charge of the shoot, he has full control over pretty much every aspect of it - he can edit as many/ as little as he likes (or if he is a complete douche he can just Chrissie_Red is a naughty person off and never send the model anything at all).. He can use those images in his portfolio for years whereas a models image doesn't last "forever" and quickly goes out of date.

If somebody asks for expenses and you don't want to pay them then don't work with them.. Its pretty simple, the times I helped out with studio costs and funded my own trips around England I seen the money I was investing as being "worth" it for the resulting images, if paying my own way makes a great photographers decision as easy as possible then great.



Paul Hodson is off-line
14 October 2013 13:35
mph
Photographer
mph
Location
United Kingdom
Cheshire
Crewe

They are not expected to.

Sometimes they are demanded - you can accept or refuse
Sometimes they are requested - you can accept or refuse

Sometimes photographers like myself will offer to pay them (within reason) as we want to shoot a model and think it may make it more likely he/she will accept the shoot and we accept that many models have less money than many photographers.

YMMV
Amateur - happy to do TF with models with potential and enthusiasm. Website: www.mphodson.co.uk


Steven Jardine is off-linePlatinum Member
14 October 2013 14:22
RedChecker
Photographer
RedChecker
Location
United Kingdom
Buckinghamshire
Stoke Mandeville

Since more often than not we (photographers) get the better end of the deal in retaining copyright and the photos can be tailored more ot what we want then I think it's only fair that we cough up some money toward the shoot, don't you think?
When you are dead, you do not know that you are dead. All of your pain is felt by others. The same thing happens when you are stupid.


RGBphoto is off-lineSilver Member
14 October 2013 14:35
magpie1
Photographer

Location
United Kingdom
Tyne and Wear
Newcastle

Quote from RedChecker
Since more often than not we (photographers) get the better end of the deal in retaining copyright and the photos can be tailored more ot what we want then I think it's only fair that we cough up some money toward the shoot, don't you think?



Agreed and if the photographer is working from home we might be able to have a lie in and bacon sarnie while the model is crawling through traffic or sitting on a bus. It's also possible to negotiate on paying travel expenses but with most things in life if people feel they are getting valued they work better and work even better if they feel someone is being generous towards them.


Des Osborne is off-line
14 October 2013 19:48
ossies
Photographer

Location
United Kingdom
Staffordshire
Tamworth

A lot of Models starting out are usually not working or in a poorly paid job { not all ] Most Togs have the funds to buy expensive equipment
and if they are professional and earning a living from it then they can off set Models fees through there tax accounts costing them nothing .
Just put in your casting that you Don't pay expenses , Its simple ..

Why do Togs whinge about a few pounds towards a models expenses when the model as probably been getting prepared and traveling maybe
4 hours before a shoot then maybe shooting for 4 hours and then traveling home Making it a possible 10 hr day . A model needs clothes make up etc ..

I some times wonder how any shoots ever take place as a lot of togs on here seem to detest models and some models detest togs , Being relatively
new on here it all seems very argumentative and childish .

If I shoot a model TF I always give them about £20 after shoot just as a thank you and appreciation of there efforts and with new amateur Models it gives
them a confidence boost to think they have been paid for a shoot .


Matthew G is off-line
14 October 2013 20:52
MG
Photographer
MG
Location
United Kingdom
Warwickshire


Just look at a tf shoot as though they are old fashioned scales... the better you are, the more the model wants to shoot with. if you're David Bailey they'd pay you loads. If you're Guy Williams Camera club then you'll have to pay her loads... anything in the middle is up for negotiation. There is no right or wrong way. If they adore youre work tgen Bobs your uncle :-)


Neil Anderson is off-line
14 October 2013 21:13
stolenfaces
Photographer
stolenfaces
Location
United Kingdom
London
West London

Quote from blancho


I also find people often misunderstand time for. It's dead simple in my mind if both people are getting something out of the shoot that makes it worth while and both people pay.



It's not simple. The model takes much greater risk as she only gets what you deign to give her. If she is paying for travelling she is risking money on your competence, diligence and honesty.
What are you risking ?

As everyone has said you don't have to pay expenses, but if you value the model so little why would you deign to shoot her at all, especially with you being a professional ?
And of course you could travel to the model to avoid her having expenses - or only work with models within walking distance.

Like any dealer he was watching for the card that is so high and wild he'll never need to deal another...


Moi is off-line
15 October 2013 07:26
clearview_photography
Photographer
clearview_photography
Location
United Kingdom
County Durham
North East

"Why do photographers pay expenses?"




Because the photographer thinks the model is worth it, if you dont think a model's worth the expense dont shoot with them, they can't force you to pay anything
The most dangerous creation of any society is the man who has nothing to lose." - James Baldwin


Gerry is off-line
15 October 2013 08:54
Gerry99111
Photographer
Gerry99111
Location
United Kingdom
Surrey
Guildford

You could travel to them and then avoid paying them expenses and incur the expenses and travelling time yourself?

It may be the only way it is feasible to shoot TF for a model who may be flat broke because they cannot get an income. They may choose to work with someone on a TF basis provided it doesn't cost them anything to do the shoot.

Like anything, in this it is up to both sides to discuss a potential working relationship and move on if both sides cannot agree
If you have to ask why I do it, you will never understand the reason why



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