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demands for payment

Samantha Duell is off-line
30 September 2013 04:05
SDuell
Photographer
SDuell
Location
United Kingdom
Cambridgeshire
whittlesey

this topic is for models and photographers alike

so ive been contact by a model who saw a advert I posted recently which clearly said TFP

we have exchanged a few messages and now she is asking if I will pay her for her time !!!!!

she is very very new to modelling - she has no experience and has only done one photo-shoot

ive said to her - I don't pay for models who dont model as a career plus my post for a model clearly said TFP also you have no experience with modelling and have no references

so my question is - did I do the right thing telling her she isn't a mainstream model therefore I wont pay her?

would you do the same with a model who has the same experience?

models - would you expect a photographer to pay you for your time when you have no experience ?

Moderator Advice

Quote from SDuell
we have exchanged a few messages and now she is asking if I will pay her for her time !!!!!

If you have booked a member on a TF basis (through PM or Shoot Diary) and they are now
demanding payment let us know - but if merely 'in discussion' there are no grounds for a Report.



Durham Photographics is off-lineSilver Member
30 September 2013 04:09
Sarge
Photographer
Sarge
Location
United Kingdom
County Durham


The fact of the matter is you asked for TFP.
She had the option to accept that or walk away.
You cant blame her for trying, but she cant blame you for declining.

Her being experienced or not has little to do with the original casting.
If she had loads of experience would you have then accepted her request and paid her (despite it being a TF casting)?


Samantha Duell is off-line
30 September 2013 04:16
SDuell
Photographer
SDuell
Location
United Kingdom
Cambridgeshire
whittlesey

na I wouldn't of payied her regardless of her experience as my post did say TFP

I just think a model with no experience cant really ask for payment I think its over reaching as she hasn't any experience or references for me to see if she warrents payment


Spike is off-line
30 September 2013 04:31
Spike
Photographer
Spike
Location
United Kingdom
Hertfordshire
St Albans

It happens quite often, lots of threads about if. If a model causes you problems before a shoot, politely decline & move on.

The vast majority of models are professional in their behavior, give your work to them.
"Photoshop is there to cut diamonds, not polish turds"


Neil Anderson is off-line
30 September 2013 04:40
stolenfaces
Photographer
stolenfaces
Location
United Kingdom
London
West London

Quote from SDuell
this topic is for models and photographers alike

so ive been contact by a model who saw a advert I posted recently which clearly said TFP

we have exchanged a few messages and now she is asking if I will pay her for her time !!!!!

she is very very new to modelling - she has no experience and has only done one photo-shoot

ive said to her - I don't pay for models who dont model as a career plus my post for a model clearly said TFP also you have no experience with modelling and have no references

so my question is - did I do the right thing telling her she isn't a mainstream model therefore I wont pay her?

would you do the same with a model who has the same experience?

models - would you expect a photographer to pay you for your time when you have no experience ?



Whether you work with any model is up to you ( if they are prepared to work with you).


This is an extraordinarily stupid post.

Models are paid for their looks ( and to some extent, for experience).
If you don't want to pay models you need to have a strong offering both in your photos and communication.

Your post suggests your communications are going to let you down. The fact that you posted a non-paid casting is a complete irrelevance to the your question.

Why are you so upset. If you're not bothered about shooting the girl then surely you would just have moved on.
If you're keen enough to moan about her on here it suggests that you did want to shoot her.
So it appears that you think she's worth shooting but you don't want to pay her.

Obviously a rude reply about her lack of experience may well be remembered, so when she is experienced she will refuse to work with you ....
Like any dealer he was watching for the card that is so high and wild he'll never need to deal another...


Sapphire is off-lineSilver Member
30 September 2013 05:07
BlueSapphire
Model
BlueSapphire
Location
United Kingdom
South Yorkshire


I have to be honest I was offered paid work straight away ( as well as alot of TF ) but I was lucky enough and possibly pleasant enough on the shoots that photographers gave me some pictures for my portfolio as well as paying me
So I obviously never took on any TF work and never have!

I wouldn't pay based on the fact you specified specifically TF but I also dont see why new girls if they have great potential can't get paid straight away as long as they prove themselves on the shoots and get good results
I think a nice system would be to offer TF if they are new but if they are a great model, work hard and get you good results offer them some payment on the shoot?
That way everyone wins - they get to go home happy feeling good after working hard and you got some good photos
If they aren't brilliant and don't really have a lot of potential it doesnt cost anything but you both get the experience and photos

Just a thought...
Sapphire Blue - RockStone Productions - Going Confidently In The Direction Of my Dreams, Living The Life I Imagined


30 September 2013 05:39
pmeu
Photographer


Quote from BlueSapphire
I have to be honest I was offered paid work straight away ( as well as alot of TF ) but I was lucky enough and possibly pleasant enough on the shoots that photographers gave me some pictures for my portfolio as well as paying me
So I obviously never took on any TF work and never have!



To me the pricing of time for novice models is a question of risk-sharing between the two parties. If one side wants to load all the risk on the other it generally won't work.

If you are a fantastic photographer then models may be willing to work for TFP because they know they will get great results. Or if the model is obviously so beautiful then you as a 'tog know you'll be highly likely to get some good shots no matter what. In both cases there is no real risk so it works. But in most cases you won't be the world's best photographer or an obvious upcoming super-model then there needs to be some give and take a bit.

With you Sarah IIRC your original (and indeed current) rates were low. As Stolenfaces points out there are many attributes which make photographers willing to pay for models and experience is only one of them, though I don't think you should undervalue experience! When I first saw your portfolio and your rates even though you had little experience I didn't think it was much of a gamble - you looked fantastic, even when starting off and I was pretty sure I would get good results even if you were nervous and/or an inexperienced poser. Your communication was superb too and that again filled me with confidence and more than happy to pay what you were asking. And as you know I was more than happy with my final results.

There are a few novice models who are like that, auburn rose, Holly Boom and Emma Rachale, for me you could just tell these were going to be great models and were just starting off - I didn't have any problems paying them what their full rates were.

But only a few brand new models are like that, and I wouldn't be willing to take the full risk on many. My approach is to offer what I think is a reasonable but at the lower end rate (plus travel) which I would hope is acceptable. On top of that, they can have any shots they like plus of course just doing studio time and practice posing (plus a purestorm recommendation) adds to their modeling 'capital' and reputation. To some extent the model pays for that latter part by being offered a reasonable but lower rate than if they were more experienced (say £25 p.h. rather than £35 p.h). Its up to the model if she finds that acceptable and I find it a reasonable way to risk share when using a new model.

Looking back at the number of times I've implemented this policy I'm not sure how successful its been mind. There has been a high proportion of models who have backed out quite late on. Would they have backed out if I had offered higher pay? maybe not but I think they probably would have done - their excuses seem to be more about having cold feet rather than dissatisfaction with the pay level.



markthetog is off-line
30 September 2013 06:28
markeewould
Photographer

Location
United Kingdom
West Midlands
Birmingham

I'd agree....

Quote from Spike
It happens quite often, lots of threads about if. If a model causes you problems before a shoot, politely decline & move on.

The vast majority of models are professional in their behavior, give your work to them.





Amber West is online
30 September 2013 07:00
Amber6
Model
Amber6
Location
United Kingdom
Dumfries and Galloway


I think she's probably 'testing' the waters. Since TFCD was the original agreement, I would stick to your guns and explain that. Anymore problems - find a new model.


Neil Anderson is off-line
30 September 2013 07:34
stolenfaces
Photographer
stolenfaces
Location
United Kingdom
London
West London

Quote from Amber6
I think she's probably 'testing' the waters. Since TFCD was the original agreement, I would stick to your guns and explain that. Anymore problems - find a new model.



We can all speculate - it could equally be that the to-and-fro involved discussions about levels, travel expenses, the quality of the photographers work or other details. Asking for money as a result of these discussions is not a 'demand' it is part of the normal business process leading to arrangements for a shoot being agreed.

If a photographer needs an experienced model to achieve decent results then it is somewhat cheeky to expect in-experienced models to 'waste' their time on TFP with them.
Like any dealer he was watching for the card that is so high and wild he'll never need to deal another...



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