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Outrageous Police Behavoir

Steve Guy is off-line
01 August 2013 10:32
Sdeve
Photographer

Location
United Kingdom
Derbyshire
Derby

Couldn't agree more with the 'not good'. The custody sergeant who failed to make a record of the search should be dismissed, if for no other reason than he's too stupid. He has no excuse. Such an event should be recorded, end of. If you'd watched as many booking in events at a custody suite as I have, it's inconceivable that such an event was not recorded. This brings into doubt the whole event with the suspicion that there may be a cadre of uniformed pervs who enjoy such opportunities. I doubt very much that is the case, but that's one of the reasons for proper recording, and if the custody sergeant was aware of what was taking place then either it was a group perv or he was just too damned stupid to hold any sort of office.

As far as the woman's mental state goes, the IPCC says "the woman was intoxicated, distressed and running in and out of a road". For distressed read off her head. It's possible that she was so off her rocker that considerable force would have to be used to restrain her for the search, and sometimes that requires upper body strength that most women just don't have, so perhaps male help was necessary, in which case it would be lawful (within PACE). Restraining a violently out of control person, even a six stone sweetie, is damned difficult to do if your intention is not to cause damage. Leaving her naked for half an hour might, might, be justified as giving her time to calm down from a distressing incident. Failing to investigate her spiked drink allegations is most probably just down to the fact that such an investigation would be almost impossible, and would achieve nothing. Think for a moment how you'd go about it.

Derrick Campbell does seem to show what sort of idiots the IPCC employ. He refers to her ...'then being filmed.' This is almost certain to be the CCTV in the cell which is on 24/7.


KevinJS is off-lineGold Member
01 August 2013 11:32
KevinJS
Photographer

Location
United Kingdom
London
London

Hello

Back to this, the woman almost certainly was ‘Off her head’ however it was what caused her to be in this state which is important. If it was only alcohol then that was her fault and an arrest if only for her safety was in order. However her claim that her drink was spiked was not investigated is the issue, predator chemicals like Rohypnol have a limited life and a urine test within 12 hours would have established if that were the case.

Turning to the search, the IPCC does state categorically that it should be done by same sex officers this was not the case.

When the woman was forcibly stripped, this would almost certainly cause her panic, she would be wondering what was going to happen next and this would have added to her distress. The issue of why she was stripped has not been clarified; there is no mention of self-harm.

Derrick Campbell does not seem to me to be an idiot, just a person doing his job effectively. His comment on filming relate to the fact it was broadcast to the Custody Desk, who else was watching her in the cell  and out of interest I wonder if anyone took a copy of the film and the forcible stripping for their own personal use. This might sound contentious but the fact the Custody Sargent did not record the incident makes my suspicious of the intent.

And back to SOCA details of Sir Ian’s resignation below
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23537513
 
I want to die in my sleep, like my grandather. Not screaming like his passengers


Durham Photographics is off-lineSilver Member
01 August 2013 17:54
Sarge
Photographer
Sarge
Location
United Kingdom
County Durham


There are 2 ways of looking at this I agree.
We have VERY limited information, which is what the press are good at doing as it makes a story.

Lets look at this a slightly different way playing devils advocate...

For starters we know she was 'running in and out of traffic'. Ok, she may have been off her head, due to her fault or the effects of her drinks being spiked, but that still doesn't change her actions or the injuries she may have sustained at the time and the choices the officers had at the time. Doing this you are going to be hurt if hit by a vehicle we can all agree on, so she could have been arrested for either sec 136 of the mental health act, for being drunk and disorderly or for public order (or other reasons that may not have come to light in this story).

Back at the station she may have been still 'up in the air' and either trying to self harm or others. Ok, the story doesn't say she was doing this (or that she WASN'T doing this). I however think she may have been and I will explain why. She may have been taken straight to the cell prior to being booked in if particularly aggressive.

To search a prisoner if totally compliant you can do it with one officer, in this case rules (not laws) state that it must be same gender (or they are asked who they prefer if gender can not be ascertained). However, good practice is for two officers to do it. One doing the search the other watching (to make sure things aren't discarded/hidden etc) or to hold items of clothing.
The only time they 'should' be strip searched is to find items that can be used to facilitate escape or used to harm themselves or others, or drugs/stolen items etc.
If the person is kicking off then you will need several people (perhaps 5 or 6 for custody tactics). Here is where the problem could lie. For a start, the search will need to be conducted as quickly as possible, and they may not be more than 1 or 2 female officers on duty (never mind in the station), so finding others would be impossible. So, what should they do? Should they not bother and risk her harming herself or worse, or use the 1 or 2 female officers that are on duty and risk those being harmed?
Of course for all I/we know they may have been several female officers on duty. If that's the case why did they use male ones in the first place? Why with just this girl and not others? Why hasn't ONE of those officers buckled under complaints interviews (believe me they WOULD when face with losing their jobs or going to prison).

As said, the reasons for the strip search has not been clarified. Possible scenarios are...
A) 5 officers including a female and custody officers wanted to get their thrills by stripping a woman who is off her head, whilst being videoed and risking their job and possibly go to jail. BTW Not all cells have video, the video cells are used for those who are going to self harm or who could injure themselves due to being drunk/drugged etc.
B) She was possibly concealing something (weapon/drugs etc).
C) She was going to self harm (don't forget she had already been trying to run into traffic, so a good possibility) and could have used her clothes in which to do so. I heard one story where a female prisoner killed herself in her cell by stuffing toilet paper into her mouth and choking, so ANY clothing would be easy to use.

As for blood/urine samples, we know this was not done at the time. Ok, you say it could have been done when she had calmed down and sent off for analysis at the cost of a few hundred pounds to prove she WAS spiked. This would, have cleared her name and made a prosecution towards her unsafe.
She could have also had her own sample done too when she left the police station, that was also an option.
It wouldn't have brought a prosecution to the person who spiked it (unless she could name them that is).

Lastly, we don't know what she took or what she had her drink spiked with. if you have ever dealt or seen anyone suffering from excited delirium (google it) you would understand why the police HAVE TO go in VERY heavy handed.



OldMaster is off-line
01 August 2013 18:16
OldMaster
Photographer
OldMaster
Location
United Kingdom
Hertfordshire
Harpenden

There is actually only one way of looking at this. There is no grey area. She was stripped naked by one wpc and 5 male police present. She was "filmed" so front desk could enjoy the view.The police are not denying anything and as far as I am aware only female "officers" should be present...but hey guys why not get your jollies stripping off a girl who may have had her drink spiked. ...or even if she was drunk the issue is the same. Lets guess she was probably quite attractive?


Durham Photographics is off-lineSilver Member
01 August 2013 23:32
Sarge
Photographer
Sarge
Location
United Kingdom
County Durham


Quote from OldMaster
There is actually only one way of looking at this. There is no grey area. She was stripped naked by one wpc and 5 male police present. She was "filmed" so front desk could enjoy the view.The police are not denying anything and as far as I am aware only female "officers" should be present...but hey guys why not get your jollies stripping off a girl who may have had her drink spiked. ...or even if she was drunk the issue is the same. Lets guess she was probably quite attractive?



Well that's it then, we can now close the thread
I am glad the law and policing s like that, who needs all the facts when the news story is good enough.


Tony Stephenson is off-line
02 August 2013 00:05
tonycsm
Photographer
tonycsm
Location
United Kingdom
East Yorkshire
Driffield

I wonder if the outcome of the police investigation into the incident would have come to the same conclusion that they had all acted legally, professionally and within guidelines if it had been a high ranking police officer's daughter to which this had happened?

www.le-femme.co.uk


Steve Guy is off-line
02 August 2013 02:46
Sdeve
Photographer

Location
United Kingdom
Derbyshire
Derby

Quote from OldMaster
There is actually only one way of looking at this. There is no grey area. She was stripped naked by one wpc and 5 male police present. She was "filmed" so front desk could enjoy the view.The police are not denying anything and as far as I am aware only female "officers" should be present...but hey guys why not get your jollies stripping off a girl who may have had her drink spiked. ...or even if she was drunk the issue is the same. Lets guess she was probably quite attractive?



"She was filmed so the front desk could enjoy the view." That statement is utter tripe, based entirely upon a lack of thought. Cameras are installed into some cells to monitor prisoners for self harm, and on occasions, to monitor police behaviour. Do you really think that they would serve their purpose if they could be switched on and off at will? They are on permanently, and recording permanently to media that is not accessible to the staff precisely that the evidence they record is of the highest quality.

"There is only one way of looking at this." followed by "...as far as I am aware..." is rather poor logic at best. The 'rule' on same sex officers is contained in PACE codes of practice is not, in fact, law. Sarge has made some accurate observations on this.

Sarge has made some very good points in his post. I normally see Sarge's posts on the police as containing the traditional view of police, that they are always right, even when they are wrong, but in this case, his post has a lot of merit.

For the avoidance of doubt, I repeat my assertion that the custody sergeant on duty, who was aware of what was happening, should be dismissed. Of everyone there, he was the one that had absolutely no excuse whatever.

The comment from someone else about if it had been a senior officer's daughter things would have been different, I very much doubt it, knowing senior officers as I do.


Steve Guy is off-line
02 August 2013 02:51
Sdeve
Photographer

Location
United Kingdom
Derbyshire
Derby

For the sake of balance, Sarge's observation on the standard police excuse namely "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" is the standard excuse of the incompetent (And thus is often heard from police officers). If you do it right, then any damnation that follows is false and can be shown to be, so lacks any justification. If you do it wrong, then the damnation that follows is deserved.


Howard Mansfield is off-line
02 August 2013 04:32
HMansfield
Photographer
HMansfield
Location
United Kingdom
Nottinghamshire


Quote from OldMasterShe was stripped naked by one wpc and 5 male police present.


True.

QuoteShe was "filmed" so front desk could enjoy the view.


She was stripped in an area covered by CCTV which allowed the front desk staff to see her naked.
She was not stripped in front of CCTV for the purpose of the front desk to see her naked.

Your suggestion is absurd.

Quotebut hey guys why not get your jollies stripping off a girl who may have had her drink spiked


Not all breaches of procedure and/or law are for the thrills. I suspect that if she believed it was done with voyeuristic intent, then it wouldn't just be an IPCC complaint.

Quote...or even if she was drunk the issue is the same.


True.

QuoteLets guess she was probably quite attractive?


Women who are off their heads on drink/drugs, with their bloodshot eyes and snarling and/or drooping mouths, are usually considered the epitome of beauty. That's why all the good old fashioned gentlemen hang around A&E on a Friday night looking for a wholesome woman to marry.

Everyone knows photographers make up the hottest proportions of Britains single men. - Kater


Andrew Miller is off-line
02 August 2013 04:32
AndrewMiller
Photographer
This member has been reset to pending
AndrewMiller
Location
United Kingdom
Gwent


Any bets on the police being given a telling off and nothing more?



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