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HowardJ is off-line
29 July 2013 06:07
HowardJ
Photographer
HowardJ
Location
United Kingdom
Surrey
West Midlands

Quote from photostore
Regardless of the answer to that Howard, surely even if she signed it, she was most probably in shock at the time, confused, adrenaline coursing through her, i hardly think she would have been in a fit state and able to formulate a coherent sentance never mind realise what she was signing for.



I'm sure it's a very difficult situation to be in and I'm sure you are in a shocked state, but... how do you legally prove this was the case especially if he has ID shots of you at the end of the shoot and video footage to back up his position?


29 July 2013 06:26
Honesty
Model
This member has been suspended


Quote from Sarge


We all have a moral obligation to report incidents.
Put it another way, imagine if you KNEW someone local to you was a child enticer/groomer/molester, would you think it acceptable to put it all over the internet for people to see in the hope that one of them would report it on your behalf or would you think reporting it to the authorities yourself was the better course of action? Is it always 'someone elses' responsibility?



I didn't know people completely unaffected could report this sort of stuff. I don't actually subscribe to the police being "useless" I think the law is too biased towards men. If I ruled the world rape would be both a criminal and civil offense with set reparations. rape actually has financial implications. So why not. I may be wrong here but isn't the burden of proof lower in civil cases? So rather than seeking a criminal conviction the lady could just go on and sue. At the moment someone getting a sentence doesn't really help the victim any. If they actually had a shot at compensation then more people would come forward. At the same time though probably more fraudulent cases...


29 July 2013 06:42
Honesty
Model
This member has been suspended


Quote from HowardJ


I'm sure it's a very difficult situation to be in and I'm sure you are in a shocked state, but... how do you legally prove this was the case especially if he has ID shots of you at the end of the shoot and video footage to back up his position?



Surely the issue of footage would prove the models story. I don't know about anyone else but a lot of extra unwanted footage happens between scenes when im filming. Where there are bloopers there is the potential for evidence. Also if the chump produces "no extra footage" I'd say that'd be pretty telling.

Timecoding.... emotional countenance changing in the model throughout shoot... all on camera. And you all keep RAW forever right? The likelihood is he's incriminated himself over & over & over.


Durham Photographics is off-lineSilver Member
29 July 2013 07:06
Sarge
Photographer
Sarge
Location
United Kingdom
County Durham


Quote from Honesty


I didn't know people completely unaffected could report this sort of stuff. I don't actually subscribe to the police being "useless" I think the law is too biased towards men. If I ruled the world rape would be both a criminal and civil offense with set reparations. rape actually has financial implications. So why not. I may be wrong here but isn't the burden of proof lower in civil cases? So rather than seeking a criminal conviction the lady could just go on and sue. At the moment someone getting a sentence doesn't really help the victim any. If they actually had a shot at compensation then more people would come forward. At the same time though probably more fraudulent cases...




Anyone can report anything, even if not directly effected. For instance if you see someone breaking into a neighbours house then you would report it even though its not directly effecting you.

Yes it can have both criminal and civil implications and dealt with by both courts.
That is why so many people are trying to sue the estate of Jimmy Saville.
A criminal court has to prove 'beyond all reasonable doubt', where a civil court has to prove on the 'balance of probability'.
Its not uncommon for someone to be found not guilty in a criminal court, but guilty in a civil court. However it does hold a lot more weight if they are found guilty in a criminal court before a civil hearing.

There was a case a year or so ago where a convicted rapist won the lottery whilst in prison. His victim took him to civil court to claim some of his winnings due to the effects the attack had on her.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jan/30/ukcrime.davidbatty


Iain Thomson is off-linePlatinum Member
29 July 2013 07:21
IainT
Photographer
IainT
Location
United Kingdom
Bedfordshire


Quote from HowardJ
Did the model in Iain's blog post sign a model release at the end of the shoot or did she walk out in shock and disgust and go to the police with evidence of the sexual assault having taken place?



Whether she signed a release or not may not be particularly relevant...if she did it could have been done at any time during the shoot, at the start even. I often have models complete paperwork and do ID shots before any shooting takes place. Many other producers do to.

It is now common practice for certain reputable companies to ask for video footage before shooting commences where the model states clearly that she understands what she is taking part in and specifying the agreed levels and for video footage when the shoot is complete where the model is asked if she is happy with the way the shoot went and that she was not asked to take part in anything not previously agreed.

If she did not sign a release, it would not stop him using the footage, but my guess is that he will not be using this footage anyway, the victim isn't actually sure if anything but solo was recorded.
I tend to be a modest man, but then I do have a lot to be modest about.


Iain Thomson is off-linePlatinum Member
29 July 2013 07:27
IainT
Photographer
IainT
Location
United Kingdom
Bedfordshire


I think the Police are caught between a rock and a hard place. I'm sure they do take most complaints seriously, but if there is no evidence, there is no evidence and no amount of goodwill or sympathy for the victim will change that, but unless reports are made then there is no chance at all of a conviction.

As previously mention, not all Police are good and efficient, but we tend to hear more about those cases which are not dealt with satisfactorily, rather than the majority of the times where the Police do a good job.

Its like bad photographers, they stand out and we hear about them, but we dont here about the majority who just go about their business or hobby in the proper manner.
I tend to be a modest man, but then I do have a lot to be modest about.


29 July 2013 09:58
HoneyB
Model
This member has been reset to pending


I had an issue with this person, no where near as bad as Iain described as I wasnt actually touched, but I was sent to him for a shoot by an agency, who I found out after the shoot, knew this companys reputation, when I was pretty much a "newbie" & scared of being assertive. Even worse was the fact the agency knew I had previously been sexually assaulted on a shoot with a different photographer just 2 months before. Im actually pretty sure the reason nothing more happened than what did, is because I actually mentioned to the person this thread refers to that I had been at the police station the day before, to through my statement with regards the previous assault. Im happy to disclose to Iain what happened on my shoot but im pretty sure nothing would have been done about it because whilst it was uncomfortable, it was relatively minor.

I will say though that I was made to do my model release/ID at the beginning of the shoot & it was incited to me that if I didn't do work he liked I wouldn't be paid (& I had no money for petrol to drive all that way back to London). So this backs up Iain's previous post, though this may have changed in the last 7 or 8 years.

Honey x
The REAL & PUBLISHED HoneyB


G Jack B is off-line
29 July 2013 11:35
Plymjack
Photographer
Plymjack
Location
United Kingdom
Devon
Plymouth

Respect to you HoneyB for sharing this.

No model should have to endure any of the events described in this thread. Nor can we just point to the police and tell them it is their problem to deal with. We all have a moral duty to support models who find themselves in this situation, leaving negative feedback takes some courage if it is because of such treatment. We should support them in any way we can.

IainT post should used to highlight these issues and help protect all models.
Real Bread Cook by day, BTL landlord & IT Guru - who said men can't multitask!


HowardJ is off-line
29 July 2013 12:46
HowardJ
Photographer
HowardJ
Location
United Kingdom
Surrey
West Midlands

If I was a model I'd never sign the release at the start of the shoot.


Paul Hodson is off-line
29 July 2013 12:49
mph
Photographer
mph
Location
United Kingdom
Cheshire
Crewe

Quote from fizzy

However, on the back of this, I've decided to leave negative feedback for a photographer who is a notorious level pusher. I worked with him when I was brand new and was too cowed by his reputation to speak up for all these years. I know there will be repercussions because he's quite unstable when he doesn't get his own way, but I won't let other women be abused by him if my speaking up might prevent it. I just hope the moderators don't remove my feedback when he,inevitably, complains.



Excellent - and as you can't add the details to the negative reference it is unlikely to be removed as he cannot argue with a simple "not recommended".

If only more had the courage to do this - especially well respected models whose references, rightly or wrongly, seem so much more worthy of note.
Amateur - happy to do TF with models with potential and enthusiasm. Website: www.mphodson.co.uk



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