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Going Rates...

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RKD Photographic is off-line
17 June 2013 03:32
arkady001
Photographer
arkady001
Location
Europe
Germany
Iserlohn

...and the realistic expectations of models.

When I started doing this about 20 years ago, model rates were about £25-£30ph for art-nude across the UK.
Nowadays it seems to be around the same. In some cases less - a lot less. Beginners sometimes pitch themselves a little high, but are soon educated (by the lack of job-offers if nothing else) to revise thier pricing downwards.

It would appear that the vast majority of UK models are realistic enough to realise that in a growing market, supply outstrips demand by quite a long way and that in order to be competitive, models need to offer a flexible approach to pricing.
I've never yet had a UK model turn around and object to my attempting to negotiate a fee (for example a whole or half-day rate that would be less than the accumulated hourly-rate offered). They might not say yes, but they never mind my asking.
This is a business and businesses need to be flexible.

Clients approach me all the time and ask 'What I can do for them'. My fees for weddings, portraits and general photography are published and set out to clients, but that never stops them trying to get the best deal - it's an expected part of doing business. It's very rare that a wedding client - for example - will look at my pricing and simply purchase a package at face-value - everyone wants a 'deal'...


Compare that to my experiences here in Germany.

Not only do models here price themselves much higher: typically around 20% higher - a relative newcomer with maybe 6-12 months' experience of shooting for 'hobby-photographers' will be asking around 50,-€ ph for implied nude (if they shoot nudes at all - I'd estimate around 80% of models here only offer portrait & fashion genres) and a lot more for art nude: hourly fees of 60,-€ or more are not uncommon -  they are utterly inflexible when it comes to negotiation. The default response to asking for any movement on pricing is either no response at all or blatant rudeness.
I was just quoted an hourly rate of 65,-€ph for art nude and when I asked if she had a half-day rate was told "Good luck finding a model with your imaginings" - in other words, arkady001 is a naughty person off and stop wasting my time.

Given that most modelling sites have forums attached where photographers discuss matters, do they not realise that 'drama' gets them less work, not more?

I hate trying to work with models here. Really. It sucks and blows all at the same time...

So I would like to say a very big 'Thank You' to all the hard-working, realistic and professional models hard at work in the UK - you make our lives so much more bearable.
"When I hold a camera, I know no fear..." - Alfred Eisenstadt


17 June 2013 04:54
1919_Images
Photographer


Probably one of the reasons Germany has the strongest economy in Europe, I'm totally fed up of the 'everyone wants a deal' culture that is now part of life in the UK, people are now happy working for peanuts in all professions, in London young people are expected to work long hours for no pay, it will all end in tears.


KevinJS is off-lineGold Member
17 June 2013 05:43
KevinJS
Photographer

Location
United Kingdom
London
London

Hello Rob,
I have to agree with you, I lived in Germany for around 9 years and did all my photography in London. The reason being was the coat and the inflexibility.
                Best examples were one model used to adverise group shoots in Foto magazine. She was organising a 4 hour shoot for 12 photographers in Gottigen fee was €130 per person. Now with 12 photographers not a lot of chance to get a reasonable portfolio of shots on the day. She would be making before expenses €1,560 which is outstanding. Second disaster was a model approached through another UK website she was €55 ph but she also wanted her travel time paid. Instead I tend to book British based models and my regulars are Cindy Read, Mel Rook and Sophia Smith none of whome come close to £50 ph and are professional , experienced and diligent
I want to die in my sleep, like my grandather. Not screaming like his passengers


Iain Thomson is off-linePlatinum Member
17 June 2013 06:37
IainT
Photographer
IainT
Location
United Kingdom
Bedfordshire


I think the problem for you in Germany is its like several other European Countries, there is not particularly a proliferation of models. In Western Europe, the UK seems to me the only country where there is a volume of models willing to model to nude and adult levels, subsequently the UK is the only country I know in Western Europe which has a number of busy independent model sites.

There are a few of the more successful and business minded models in the UK who use this to their advantage and model regularly in Europe where they know they can get higher fees than in the UK

However, being in Germany I would have thought that Czech and Hungary would have been your obvious place to book models from?
I tend to be a modest man, but then I do have a lot to be modest about.


RKD Photographic is off-line
17 June 2013 06:45
arkady001
Photographer
arkady001
Location
Europe
Germany
Iserlohn

Quote from IainT
I think the problem for you in Germany is its like several other European Countries, there is not particularly a proliferation of models. In Western Europe, the UK seems to me the only country where there is a volume of models willing to model to nude and adult levels, subsequently the UK is the only country I know in Western Europe which has a number of busy independent model sites. There are a few of the more successful and business minded models in the UK who use this to their advantage and model regularly in Europe where they know they can get higher fees than in the UK However, being in Germany I would have thought that Czech and Hungary would have been your obvious place to book models from?




Some CZ models do occasionally tour around here and I look out for them when they do - however, on the site I use most there are 48,000 female models under 30 years old, so it's not like there's a paucity of talent - though the expectations of some of the newcomers are pitiful - short, dumpy girls only accepting offers for fashion and runway, for example...

But you're right about the UK - the market is very strong.

There's a sense of 'entitlement' common to a lot of Germans - anyone who's lived here will know what I mean - maybe that's part of it...
"When I hold a camera, I know no fear..." - Alfred Eisenstadt


KevinJS is off-lineGold Member
17 June 2013 06:55
KevinJS
Photographer

Location
United Kingdom
London
London

Hello Iain

However, being in Germany I would have thought that Czech and Hungary would have been your obvious place to book models from?

The problem with the Eastern European models they are even more expensive, not sure how much they charge outside their own country but in the past I have tried booking via an agency in Prague through K Models, cost for the model was higher than in London, I would have been required to book a MUA and a couple of further add no’s and the studios were also more expensive. I had a friend who wanted to do the same he had the same experience. In Eastern Europe there is a proliferation of models, the big difference is they are more business savvy, (not a bad thing).   However that seems to have shifted to greed.
I want to die in my sleep, like my grandather. Not screaming like his passengers


Angel3 is off-lineSilver Member
18 June 2013 10:20
angelique110
Model
angelique110
Location
United Kingdom
West Sussex
worthing

I always tend to negotiate unless the shoot is 12 hours away and they're offering £40 for 8 hours work.


RKD Photographic is off-line
19 June 2013 01:57
arkady001
Photographer
arkady001
Location
Europe
Germany
Iserlohn

Quote from angelique110
I always tend to negotiate unless the shoot is 12 hours away and they're offering £40 for 8 hours work.



That's been my experience working in the UK as well...

"When I hold a camera, I know no fear..." - Alfred Eisenstadt


Mike Rhys is off-line
05 July 2013 09:04
tob
Photographer
tob
Location
Europe
Germany
Hamburg

As a german photographer I can totally agree to Rob and Kevin. I personally prefer working with UK models too, either in UK or in Germany.

But to be honest, Germany is split up regarding models, their levels and prices. While there are plenty of nude models in Berlin and eastern Germany, the number of models willing to work to nude gets smaller in the west and south. Especially in the north of Germany the number of models working to nude is really small, leading into ridiculous high quotes. There are far less professional models in Germany than in UK and even the large german model sites mainly host hobbyist models.


Tempus Fugit is off-lineSilver Member
06 July 2013 13:58
pinkbuildingphotography
Photographer
pinkbuildingphotography
Location
United Kingdom
Tayside


I am not surprised that in Western and Southern Germany the prices are higher, or indeed in that in Hungary and Czech Republic the prices have risen.

Both those countries became famous for having a lot of cheap models. Therefore a large number of people went there looking for models and the prices have risen.

I would be interested to know what the scene is in countries like Romania/ Croatia/ Serbia is there much of an industry for internet models like here in the UK.

More than that I would also like to ask if anyone knows has there been a change in the prices/ availability of models in countries where there was a massive shunt in their economies such as Greece, Ireland, Spain etc.



Riding on the Gotterdammerung. Down and down she goes. Where she stops no one knows.



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