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Is it a good idea ... [ Chaperones, Yet Again]

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Philip Hartley is off-line
02 February 2012 20:00
ph_oto
Photographer
ph_oto
Location
United Kingdom
South Yorkshire
Barnsley

Quote from orsoncarter
I'm going to get on my hobby horse again... If anyone - photographers or models - has a policy about chaperones, it would make sense to state it in your profile notes. That way, when a shoot is being arranged both parties know the score.

So if, for example, a photographer has a 'no chaperone' policy, if a model turns up anounced with a chaperone the photographer is entitled to say 'you should have read my profile notes, so please go away'. Alternatively, if a model states in her notes that she will always have a chaperone, a photographer has no grounds for grumbling when she turns up accompanied for the shoot.




Exactly... My profile clearly states what mine is.
Say what you Mean and Mean what you Say


Fizzy is off-line
02 February 2012 20:05
fizzy
Model
fizzy
Location
United Kingdom
Tyne and Wear
Newcastle upon Tyne

Quote from SMILESPHOTO
 posting

I find this worrying. Why the hell would someone leave a good reference for someone (model or tog) if they were 'dodgy'. Anyone doing this should be banned. I personally take great pride in some of the comments I receive and would be horrified to think that anyone I've worked with just gave a good reference on the assumption I'd return the favour. There might be one or two who view references like that but surely the majority tell it how it is - if not, what's the point of the system or indeed the point of Purestorm? The sort of person capable of false references is almost certainly capable of posting false details and images as well.




That's not really fair. I've left "photographers" negative references and have, without fail, gotten a PM or a text saying what a lying whore I am and how I must have been imagining what happened. These people are already abusers, they're not going to balk at a bit of extra threatening or emotional manipulation. I would assume that a lot of models are just scared or else they can't deal with any extra fallout on what they've already experienced. There's also this overwhelming attitude sometimes that models shouldn't speak out about the negative aspects of being a freelance model, which unfortunately does include dealing with dodgy characters trying to pass themselves off as photographers, and they may think leaving a negative reference will cost them work or give them a bad reputation (which can be pretty devastating for a model's career).

There's also the problem that the "photographer" in question might kick up a huge stink about having been left a negative reference and simply get it removed, especially if they start spouting their mouth off about legal action, because in a one on one situation the model has no proof.

Art nude model - £35ph


02 February 2012 20:43
TMG
Photographer



I'm glad when models speak out about bad behaviour. It changed my view of the status quo when a few long running threads discussing this appeared a while back.

I don't allow chaperones myself, purely because I want to eliminate any potential hassle, but after reading those threads I at least understand why some models, particularly new ones, do want them.

The chaperone thing keeps coming up because people with opposite views on the subject have good reason to think the way they do.

Models have told me it's dodgy I don't allow them. From their point of view it's a reasonable assessment - if all I'm interested in is photography, what do I care if there is a passive observer there?

I can even see it from the jealous boyfriend's perspective. You're jogging along perfectly happily with your other half and one day she announces she is going to go off to some strange bloke's place and take her clothes off. She tells him it's perfectly ok, the guy's a professional, he has 600 positive references, it will help her new career etc etc.
But he is a bloke and he understands other blokes a lot better than she does.


Rich G is off-line
02 February 2012 20:43
SMILESPHOTO
Photographer
SMILESPHOTO
Location
United Kingdom
Kent


Quote from fizzy
That's not really fair. I've left "photographers" negative references and have, without fail, gotten a PM or a text saying what a lying whore I am and how I must have been imagining what happened. These people are already abusers, they're not going to balk at a bit of extra threatening or emotional manipulation. I would assume that a lot of models are just scared or else they can't deal with any extra fallout on what they've already experienced. There's also this overwhelming attitude sometimes that models shouldn't speak out about the negative aspects of being a freelance model, which unfortunately does include dealing with dodgy characters trying to pass themselves off as photographers, and they may think leaving a negative reference will cost them work or give them a bad reputation (which can be pretty devastating for a model's career).

There's also the problem that the "photographer" in question might kick up a huge stink about having been left a negative reference and simply get it removed, especially if they start spouting their mouth off about legal action, because in a one on one situation the model has no proof.




Sorry to hear you've had bad experiences Anna but perhaps if others had left bad references then you wouldn't have worked with these people in the first place. Could you not leave a reference along the lines of 'Working with XXXX was a real experience  - please contact me for details'? Even if you write something vaguely complimentary, suggesting people contact you first might help others avoid a similar situation and if they don't seek your advice first then that's their fault and you have a clear conscience.

HAPPY TO WORK UP TO OPEN WALLET LEVELS


Chrissie Red is off-line
02 February 2012 20:53
Chrissie_Red
Model
Chrissie_Red
Location
United Kingdom
Tayside
Perthshire

Quote from SMILESPHOTO
Sorry to hear you've had bad experiences Anna but perhaps if others had left bad references then you wouldn't have worked with these people in the first place. Could you not leave a reference along the lines of 'Working with XXXX was a real experience  - please contact me for details'? Even if you write something vaguely complimentary, suggesting people contact you first might help others avoid a similar situation and if they don't seek your advice first then that's their fault and you have a clear conscience.




I'm sure you are no longer able to leave details in negative references. I have only left one negative but no comment on it.
I did leave a positive which just said "he turned up on time" - says it all really.


Rich G is off-line
02 February 2012 20:58
SMILESPHOTO
Photographer
SMILESPHOTO
Location
United Kingdom
Kent


Quote from Chrissie_Red
I'm sure you are no longer able to leave details in negative references. I have only left one negative but no comment on it.
I did leave a positive which just said "he turned up on time" - says it all really.



Well done Chrissie - you don't have to leave a negative reference to get the message across. cheekycheeky 

HAPPY TO WORK UP TO OPEN WALLET LEVELS


Chrissie Red is off-line
02 February 2012 21:16
Chrissie_Red
Model
Chrissie_Red
Location
United Kingdom
Tayside
Perthshire

Quote from SMILESPHOTO
Well done Chrissie - you don't have to leave a negative reference to get the message across. cheekycheeky 




This is true, he wasn't a creep or anything just a bit of a knob.


02 February 2012 21:18
Bonno
Model


I definately think negative references should be left. However, I can also see what hassle it would be. Due to the exact reasons models have put above.

I have worked with people with no references before, if the emails seem normal, I also take a chaperone to at least drop me off in these circumstances.. But funnily enough, the ones with no references have always been perfectly fine, and the two with 50+ references have been dodgy. Seems so odd.

Trouble is, people say... Trust your instinct and if everything seems fine and references are OK then you shouldn't need to take one. BUT... even the most normal planning of shoots/emails don't mean their going to be perfectly safe people.

I mean, come on, your going to a man's house, alone and possibly in the middle of nowhere. References or not, your screwed if your instincts aeren't right. As I've seen.

Also, this whole 'I wouldn't take a friend to work at the office' thing dosen't really work in these circumstances. I mean, Yeah you wouldn't, but how many other people are there at work? You don't go around to a man's house, alone and get naked for pictures at an office job.
Constant Discounted Rates :) Email for Info..


Fizzy is off-line
02 February 2012 21:27
fizzy
Model
fizzy
Location
United Kingdom
Tyne and Wear
Newcastle upon Tyne

Quote from SMILESPHOTO
Sorry to hear you've had bad experiences Anna but perhaps if others had left bad references then you wouldn't have worked with these people in the first place. Could you not leave a reference along the lines of 'Working with XXXX was a real experience  - please contact me for details'? Even if you write something vaguely complimentary, suggesting people contact you first might help others avoid a similar situation and if they don't seek your advice first then that's their fault and you have a clear conscience.




Then the whole thing would be down to interpretation and it would be back to the original problem.

I do agree models should leave negative references and it's never hurt me any but then I'm a cynical and thick-skinned old bitch. I can't really judge anyone else too harshly for being scared or whatever, that's not their fault, it's the fault of the person who abused them for putting them in the situation in the first place.

Art nude model - £35ph


Rich G is off-line
03 February 2012 03:04
SMILESPHOTO
Photographer
SMILESPHOTO
Location
United Kingdom
Kent


Quote from fizzy
Then the whole thing would be down to interpretation and it would be back to the original problem.

I do agree models should leave negative references and it's never hurt me any but then I'm a cynical and thick-skinned old bitch. I can't really judge anyone else too harshly for being scared or whatever, that's not their fault, it's the fault of the person who abused them for putting them in the situation in the first place.




A short one-line reference would usually speak volumes. If I read a model's reference saying 'She turned up and posed as required' it would certainly give me cause to contact the photographer for further elaboration. As Chrissie suggested, just because it might be awkward to leave negative comments, there's no need to leave a three paragraph glowing report!

P.S. Checked your port and 'old' and 'bitch' aren't words which immediately come to mind!!

HAPPY TO WORK UP TO OPEN WALLET LEVELS



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